Outdated Electrical in new rental.

[tranquility]

So, do I attach the negative to the positive or the positive to the negative?

Legally speaking, of course.

 

[justalayman]

Where does it say a carpenter cannot connect a few wires together? Are you saying that I as the owner cannot legally put a fan in my own property? If I can, then I can also hire someone(anyone) to do it for me.

Is some states, you can do your own electrical on your own personal residence. In some, you can't

In a few you might be able to do electrical work in a rental unit you own but very often can't because of the fact it is a business and as such, the electrical work would require the use of a licensed electrician.

. In any state that licenses electricians, you cannot simply hire "anyone" to do the work in your stead. If licensing is required, working for hire would almost always invoke the requirement for the work to be performed by a licensed electrician.

every state in the country has different laws and rules. Many local municipalities also have their own rules and ordinances. Local cannot override state laws/rules but they can add whatever they want.

 

[justalayman]

So, do I attach the negative to the positive or the positive to the negative?

Legally speaking, of course.

there is no negative or positive with AC electricity. It alternates 60 times per second (in the US. Much of the rest of the world it would be 50 times per second) so each wire is "positive" while the other is "negative" and then they reverse and repeat this 60 times per second.

 

[Alaska landlord]

what happens if you don't have one white and one black?

and deciding where to "wrap" the green is a matter of being legal or not.

and I already spoke to why an electrician is the proper trade to install the fan.


alaska, you really take the cake. Now you are suggesting the tenant do electrical work in a rental unit. Not only is that most likely illegal, it is foolish for a LL to allow such work be done by an unqualified person.

and no, a carpenter cannot do it just as well. The electrician can legally install the fan, including the wiring and box. A carpenter can't.

My landlord rule No 1.

Never hire a tenant to do work for you. Especially if the tenant is qualified to do the work.

Also, state and local laws will define who can do what. As you know they can differ.
It may not be a question of who can install, but rather will it pass code once the job is completed. An electrician can install the fan improperly just as easy as anyone else. It all depends on who you hire and how much he or she knows.

 

[Alaska landlord]

Is some states, you can do your own electrical on your own personal residence. In some, you can't

In a few you might be able to do electrical work in a rental unit you own but very often can't because of the fact it is a business and as such, the electrical work would require the use of a licensed electrician.

. In any state that licenses electricians, you cannot simply hire "anyone" to do the work in your stead. If licensing is required, working for hire would almost always invoke the requirement for the work to be performed by a licensed electrician.

every state in the country has different laws and rules. Many local municipalities also have their own rules and ordinances. Local cannot override state laws/rules but they can add whatever they want.

I think we agree.

 

[tranquility]

there is no negative or positive with AC electricity. It alternates 60 times per second (in the US. Much of the rest of the world it would be 50 times per second) so each wire is "positive" while the other is "negative" and then they reverse and repeat this 60 times per second.

Of course, I remember now, Westinghouse won.

So, if V=IR and it reverses 60 times a second, how can they purport to tell me I'm getting 120v in my house? Seems like it's going to be approximately zero.

Anyway, do you know if CA is a state where you can to stuff to your own house? When I bought the place I replaced all the light switches and outlets. I'd hate to have to have an electrician come in and review everything before I sell it.

 

[12345672]

You need a CARPENTER to install a ceiling fan - not an ELECTRICIAN - a carpenter can block and make sure it is supported properly IN THE CEILING - connecting the electrical/wires is easy....I've done it.

You are borrowing trouble....find a repairman/handyman who has probably installed hundreds of fans and have them do it...don't pay more than $100 since you already have the fan

CV - you even get it wrong on NON-LL/T related stuff

ELECTRICIANS install fans all the time - it's part of their job, INCLUDING making sure that the electrical box is appropriately supported.

I think this was another intentionally absurd posts from CV. I hope she wouldn't advise a tenant to do electrical work on their apartment, or have a non-electrician do electrical work on an apartment, or go directly against the permission given by the landlord and have a handyman do a job that requires an electrician per the landlord and law. The only right thing in the post was the possibility of needing additional support to hold up the fan.

 

[12345672]

there is no negative or positive with AC electricity. It alternates 60 times per second (in the US. Much of the rest of the world it would be 50 times per second) so each wire is "positive" while the other is "negative" and then they reverse and repeat this 60 times per second.

More and more properties are being wired with low voltage circuits for LED lighting. It is possible to run into DC circuits in the US. Not that you would run a ceiling fan off of a low voltage circuit.

In a 120v circuit, only one of the wires is hot, not switching back and forth. You only need one wire and a ground to use the electricity (but not code or safe, don't run a light off of a switch wire and ground). The ~120 volts is the potential between the hot wire and the neutral. 240v circuits have the 240 volt potential between two 110 volt hot wires.

 

[Alaska landlord]

I think this was another intentionally absurd posts from CV. I hope she wouldn't advise a tenant to do electrical work on their apartment, or have a non-electrician do electrical work on an apartment, or go directly against the permission given by the landlord and have a handyman do a job that requires an electrician per the landlord and law. The only right thing in the post was the possibility of needing additional support to hold up the fan.

Experienced Landlords don't let tenants work on their units.
Even a qualified licensed tenant should be discouraged from doing work on your property. The reason for this is that this same tenant can use any information he or she may find in the process of repair to use against you if the landlord tenant relationship should deteriorate.

 

[Alaska landlord]

More and more properties are being wired with low voltage circuits for LED lighting. It is possible to run into DC circuits in the US. Not that you would run a ceiling fan off of a low voltage circuit.

In a 120v circuit, only one of the wires is hot, not switching back and forth. You only need one wire and a ground to use the electricity (but not code or safe, don't run a light off of a switch wire and ground). The ~120 volts is the potential between the hot wire and the neutral. 240v circuits have the 240 volt potential between two 110 volt hot wires.

Two technical for me, I just follow the colors and put things back the way I found it. If the circuit blows when I turn on the switch I did it wrong.

 

[justalayman]

I think this was another intentionally absurd posts from CV. I hope she wouldn't advise a tenant to do electrical work on their apartment, or have a non-electrician do electrical work on an apartment, or go directly against the permission given by the landlord and have a handyman do a job that requires an electrician per the landlord and law. The only right thing in the post was the possibility of needing additional support to hold up the fan.

just in case nobody knows anything about me;

I am a licensed journeyman electrician in Michigan. a member of the IBEW and served my 5 year apprenticeship through them.

I really do know a little bit about electricity. Two things I would hope all of you never learn:

it hurts like a MF when you get hit with 277 volts with the contact points being each wrist.

a simple mistake can cause a problem where enough heat is produced to cause a fire.


so, to the fan:

there are specific "fan rated" electrical boxes designed to mount ceiling fans. There are models that are made to be mounted directly to a rafter and there are models with integral mounting brackets (used to span from rafter to rafter as well as models that are simply an electrical box, that is fan rated, which the installer would mount as needed.

that IS part of my work, not a carpenters.

Riddle; that is why I posted what I did. I know my ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to electricity and it sounds like the guy you hired doesn't. Since he didn't charge you and didn't do any work, no problems.


tranquility, I will look. Calfornia is a strange state and many localities have their own rules. Not wanting to get specific if you don't want to and get nosey about where you are located and if you don't, you would also need to check your local municipality what any requirements are.

but without looking; work such as you have done is very often allowed simply because all you are doing is replacing something that is already wired with a new same part. I will see what I can find though.

 

[Alaska landlord]

I was once stuck to the fuse box for about 30 seconds before I somehow got free. Funny thing, but I remember thinking the same thought in a loop.

Thought was "Oh sh*t!"

That's when I learned not to mess with the fuse box.

 

[FarmerJ]

Riddle more detail for you , since about WW1 era home wiring has changed alot , OLD doesnt mean dangerous, the number one cause of old wiring becoming dangerous is when occupants of a structure repeatedly over load the wiring by running loads that are heavy enough to make a fuse or breaker warm /hot . Over time the heat destroys the insulation on the wiring. Knob and Tube installs ( the oldest method of wiring a home ) have the risk of being damaged like when people pile belongings into a attic that doesnt have a finished floor and boxes and crap push into the wires. Many pre electricity structures ( built before structures were wired like my first home built around 1900) had armored cables that housed the wiring which had ceiling lights often attached via a special cast iron bracket that was screwed to lath and sometimes had old gas pipe from gas lights that the bracket was mounted to. These are just fine with the original lights that were installed BUT offer ZERO support for a ceiling fan. Older Electricians would be familiar with how to properly install a fan in this situation, or how to properly install a fan with a knob and tube install. AND yes as justa told you there were alot of early non metalic cable used in homes ,it doesnt mean that the wiring is shot. Get a second opinion from a older electrician Fair odds are that the electrician will have a younger person on the crew who will do the grunt work , such as going into attics or basements and doing the odd stuff related to the carpentry aspects. If your really curious your free to choose to call your city /county building inspections and learn if your LL must make certain changes tied to so called upgrades of other items in the property. Like where I used to have a 4plex in mpls at one time they didnt force GFIs to be installed in kitchens and baths of older units unless certain remodeling occured. This kind of information is public info BUT be aware as Alaska stated about inviting them in. IF you really like where you live you could find your self in with a LL who will not renew your lease.

 

[12345672]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NJ

I recently moved and the LL gave me permission to have an electrician install a ceiling fan in the bedrooms (they have light fixtures but no fans). Anyway the electrician came today and told me the wiring is outdated, not up to code, and can catch fire any moment. He claims instead of plastic covers the wires are covered it is some type of fabric. He advised me NOT to install the ceiling fans so out of fear of starting a fire I didn't. After I called my Insurance company to make sure my renters policy was all in order and active, I tried to do a google search to find out where can I find out for sure if the electrical is okay. I don't think the electrician would lie to me, he didn't charge me since he didn't finish so what does he have to gain. However other tenants have ceiling fans and the place hasn't sparked yet so maybe he overreacted, I don't know I am not an electrician. Does anyone know if there is a website/department/agency that handles this?

In case it matters for your answer I don't know the age of the building but it is at least 25 years old (the oldest tenant here has been living here 25 years and told me the building has been in the family for years), the LL lives in FL and has never lived here, the building has 4 apts total, and the power goes out a lot.

You received some good answers and some very bad answers.

Basic overview of facts given:
1. You are a tenant in a 4 unit apartment building
2. Other tenants have ceiling fans in their units
3. You want a ceiling fan installed at your expense
4. Your landlord has given permission for you to have a licensed electrician do the work
5. The wiring to the fixture is older wiring (25 years plus)
6. The electrician hired wouldn't do the work saying it would be dangerous
7. The electricity in the building goes out a lot

Electrical work in your building probably needs to be done by a licensed electrician while it may be possible for the landlord to be allowed to do small things like changing fixtures himself. Even if a non licensed worker can do the work, the permission from the landlord is to have an electrician do the work.

It is possible that the electrician was trying to make a bigger job for himself by making a bigger deal about the wiring. It is also possible that the wiring is not safe to hook a ceiling fan up to. Have someone else look at it. Take pictures if there is wiring that you have access to and post them on a home improvement or electrical forum for others to identify.
Most wiring done in the past 50 years should be safe. It could be older romex wiring (two insulated conductors with a fabric sheath) which should be safe if it hasn't been damaged and isn't degrading. It is possible that local code could require newer wiring (modern romex with two or more insulated conductors and an uninsulated ground in a plastic sheath) in apartments or when work is done. The wiring could also be older asbestos wiring (insulation around the two conductors is asbestos which would be fragile with age) which was common through right after ww2, which should not be used for a ceiling fan since the vibrations from the fan can cause the insulation to crumble and disturbing the wires can cause the insulation to deform allowing the wires to short.

If the electricity in the building goes out a lot, there is probably electrical problems that should be checked out.



Why don't my posts post anymore when I time out and log right back in? I need to remember to hit ctrl-C before hitting submit if I get up while writing a reply.

 

[tranquility]

it hurts like a MF when you get hit with 277 volts with the contact points being each wrist.

I always turned off the circut breaker and checked with a meter before touching bare (bear?) wire. Even then, based on advice of my, then, brother-in-law to be with similar credentials as justalayman, I always touched the wire with the *back* of my hand first. It was an old house and the circut breaker "map" I made was not always accurate and I must have been careless on how to set the meter a couple of times as I had two yummy electrical parties in my duties. Glad I didn't grab tight from muscle contraction because of the third safety.

It still hurt at 120. I cannot imagine getting hit with 277.