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1st Amendment & Minors

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quincy

Senior Member
EthanMH, in doing your research, there are a few court cases on religious beliefs as they apply to minors that you may be interested in reviewing. It is not unheard of for courts to intervene when there is both a clear showing of harm to a minor (or likely harm) and such harm presents a greater risk than does intervention by a court into family privacy and the free exercise of religion.

A "harm of child" standard is used when a court looks to enjoin the parents' constitutional right of free exercise of religion and the parents' right to indoctrinate their child(ren) into this religion as they see fit. While this harm-to-child standard does not appear to be met by what you describe as your situation here, the following cases are presented for their educational value.

To preface what follows, the conflict over different religious beliefs and practices, where it involves minors, arises most often in divorce situations when the parents of the minor have differing religious beliefs, and not when the minors' religious beliefs differ from the parents. But some of the courts' decisions can be applied, in a very academic way, to a minor's rights to exercise his/her own religious beliefs. Justice William O. Douglas said that, "Constitutional rights do not mature and come into being magically only as one attains the state-defined age of majority. Minors, as well as adults, are protected by the Constitution and possess constitutional rights."

In Zummo v Zummo, 1990, an appellate court in Pennsylvania held that, to justify restrictions on the parents' right to instill religious beliefs in their children, it must be established that there is a substantial threat of present or future harm to the child(ren) should restrictions not be made. The court in Zummo stated that, by age 12, a child may have sufficient capacity to assert his/her own personal religious identity. Judges should, said the court, exercise their own discretion on the issue on a case-by-case basis.

While there has been no study done, to my knowledge, that shows being educated in a religion contrary to one's own is harmful in itself, a 1997 Massachusetts' case, Kendall v Kendall, had several experts testify that emotional harm to a child can result when negative messages about his/her practiced or preferred religion are communicated. In the Kendall case, the court found demonstrated evidence of harm to the minor child in the reports presented for the court's review.

In Bienenfeld v Bennett-White and in Kirchner v Caughey, Maryland court decisions 1992, courts restricted parental religious activities due to harmful emotional distress experienced by the children, and in Burnham v Burnham, Nebraska 1981, the court found that differing religious beliefs of the parents affected the well-being of the child, and in Bentley v Bentley and in Schwarzman v Schwarzman, New York, court decisions led to restrictions on parental religious practices when it involved their children, because of evidenced emotional damage and detrimental effects on the children.

Emotional harm, in other words, can potentially result with the "pitting" of another's religious beliefs against one's own.

States and courts have all required, however, a clear showing that religious activities and differences present a substantial threat to the physical and emotional well-being of a child before they will consider enjoining a parent. So the advice you have been given (ie. you must attend church with your mom) is the advice you should probably follow until you are no longer a minor and living under your mom's roof - unless your mom is willing to listen to a well-reasoned argument why you should be allowed to stay home. A well-reasoned argument may be easier to compose if you read over Justice Douglas' Dissent in Wisconsin v Yoder, 406 US 205, 1972.

As an aside, some other countries provide for minors (ages 12 and older in a couple of countries, 14 and older in others) to exercise their own religious beliefs, even if their parents do not share or approve of the beliefs.
 
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Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Quincy -

Throw in the fact that the OP professes to have NO religious beliefs and let us know what you think ;)

The parents are not introducing DIFFERING religious beliefs as the OP HAS NO religious beliefs!
 

quincy

Senior Member
Good point :) BUT. . . .

". . . .the Court has unambiguously concluded that the individual freedom of conscience protected by the First Amendment embraces the right to select any religious faith or none at all." Wallace v Jaffree, 472 US 38 (1985)

Atheism in the U.S. is considered equal to religion under the First Amendment.
 
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CdwJava

Senior Member
None of which changes much of anything here. Junior can either go with mom, or face the consequences at home. I seriously doubt he is going to be the poster child for any advocacy group that wants to sue mom to keep him from the pews on Sunday. But, if he really wants to turn home into Hell, he is welcome to contact some atheist advocacy organization and see if they are willing to front his attorney's fees.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Carl, I don't think that Ethan has any intention of suing his mom so that he can avoid going to church. He DOES seem interested in learning about his religious rights under the law. Nothing wrong with that.

You know, the nice thing about atheism is that you can practice disbelief just about anywhere - including (and perhaps best) in a church. ;)
 

ErinGoBragh

Senior Member
OP-

I am also an atheist, I have been for 13 years, and I STILL go to church with my grandmother, as she occasionally needs rides. I don't like it, and I don't stand, I don't pray, and I don't take communion, but I go because SHE wants me to. And I'm 25, live on my own.. hell, I even spend the money out of my pocket for gas to get her there.

I can tell you from personal experience, being a church won't change what you believe unless you want to change it. I use the time for contemplating my upcoming week.. planning things I need to do in my head, thinking about current issues, you get the point.

But I DO agree with other posters.. if your mom wants you to go to church, you should go to church. As much as I believe that what Quincy is saying SHOULD be right, your mother is putting a roof over your head. If it brings her comfort to have you in church to save whatever she thinks is your eternal soul, do it until you move out. I don't believe it's a hill worth dying on. If you really feel a need to explore your own atheism, try to start a secular group at school, or see if there are local secular organizations. Contact me by PM if you want some internet options for resources. Perhaps you could let your mother have her way, just until you move out, but also use the experience of going as an opportunity to form your own arguments against why you don't feel like religion is something for you. It comes in handy in discussions you will have once you out of the "athiest" closet, so to speak. :)
 
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WaltinPA

Member
being a church won't change what you believe unless you want to change it.

Not always true. Chapter 9 in the Book of Acts (in the Bible, in case you forgot) describes how Saul's mission of persecution was interrupted and redirected by Jesus Christ Himself! Renamed Paul, he became one of the great apostles of the first century A.D. Even a nonbeliever can get something positive from a church service by paying attention. Try it. ;)
 

ErinGoBragh

Senior Member
Not always true. Chapter 9 in the Book of Acts (in the Bible, in case you forgot) describes how Saul's mission of persecution was interrupted and redirected by Jesus Christ Himself! Renamed Paul, he became one of the great apostles of the first century A.D. Even a nonbeliever can get something positive from a church service by paying attention. Try it. ;)

I was an altar server and believe me, I spent enough of my life paying attention to know that I really don't want to anymore. I've also extensively studied a variety of religions; I'm sorry, I have nothing against religion whatsoever, but it's not my cup of tea. Doesn't mean I don't have morals, it's just that what I believe (or don't) and the majority of people believe are two entirely different things.
 
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EthanMH, in doing your research, there are a few court cases on religious beliefs as they apply to minors that you may be interested in reviewing. It is not unheard of for courts to intervene when there is both a clear showing of harm to a minor (or likely harm) and such harm presents a greater risk than does intervention by a court into family privacy and the free exercise of religion.

A "harm of child" standard is used when a court looks to enjoin the parents' constitutional right of free exercise of religion and the parents' right to indoctrinate their child(ren) into this religion as they see fit. While this harm-to-child standard does not appear to be met by what you describe as your situation here, the following cases are presented for their educational value.

To preface what follows, the conflict over different religious beliefs and practices, where it involves minors, arises most often in divorce situations when the parents of the minor have differing religious beliefs, and not when the minors' religious beliefs differ from the parents. But some of the courts' decisions can be applied, in a very academic way, to a minor's rights to exercise his/her own religious beliefs. Justice William O. Douglas said that, "Constitutional rights do not mature and come into being magically only as one attains the state-defined age of majority. Minors, as well as adults, are protected by the Constitution and possess constitutional rights."

In Zummo v Zummo, 1990, an appellate court in Pennsylvania held that, to justify restrictions on the parents' right to instill religious beliefs in their children, it must be established that there is a substantial threat of present or future harm to the child(ren) should restrictions not be made. The court in Zummo stated that, by age 12, a child may have sufficient capacity to assert his/her own personal religious identity. Judges should, said the court, exercise their own discretion on the issue on a case-by-case basis.

While there has been no study done, to my knowledge, that shows being educated in a religion contrary to one's own is harmful in itself, a 1997 Massachusetts' case, Kendall v Kendall, had several experts testify that emotional harm to a child can result when negative messages about his/her practiced or preferred religion are communicated. In the Kendall case, the court found demonstrated evidence of harm to the minor child in the reports presented for the court's review.

In Bienenfeld v Bennett-White and in Kirchner v Caughey, Maryland court decisions 1992, courts restricted parental religious activities due to harmful emotional distress experienced by the children, and in Burnham v Burnham, Nebraska 1981, the court found that differing religious beliefs of the parents affected the well-being of the child, and in Bentley v Bentley and in Schwarzman v Schwarzman, New York, court decisions led to restrictions on parental religious practices when it involved their children, because of evidenced emotional damage and detrimental effects on the children.

Emotional harm, in other words, can potentially result with the "pitting" of another's religious beliefs against one's own.

States and courts have all required, however, a clear showing that religious activities and differences present a substantial threat to the physical and emotional well-being of a child before they will consider enjoining a parent. So the advice you have been given (ie. you must attend church with your mom) is the advice you should probably follow until you are no longer a minor and living under your mom's roof - unless your mom is willing to listen to a well-reasoned argument why you should be allowed to stay home. A well-reasoned argument may be easier to compose if you read over Justice Douglas' Dissent in Wisconsin v Yoder, 406 US 205, 1972.

As an aside, some other countries provide for minors (ages 12 and older in a couple of countries, 14 and older in others) to exercise their own religious beliefs, even if their parents do not share or approve of the beliefs.

I am interested to hear OP's opinion on the helpful information posted above.

OP, what did you learn from looking up and reading the cases mentioned above? You are an accomplished scholar, so I assume that you have read the cases in detail and are now able to make a more convincing argument.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Carl, I don't think that Ethan has any intention of suing his mom so that he can avoid going to church. He DOES seem interested in learning about his religious rights under the law. Nothing wrong with that.

You know, the nice thing about atheism is that you can practice disbelief just about anywhere - including (and perhaps best) in a church. ;)
But, he wanted to know what he could do. Which, unless he wants to force the issue is nothing.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Do I sense a bit of sarcasm there, The_Non_Mom? :D

Carl, EthanMH never said he wanted to "force" any issue. In Ethan's original post he said, "I simply wished to know if the First Amendment applies to minors and, if so, how would I prove it to [my mom]?"

There are several ways to prove that the First Amendment applies to minors, and I provided Ethan with some case references to help him prove his own case to his mom. I concentrated on the free exercise of religion cases, because that is the issue being discussed here, but I COULD have provided others - especially on the free speech rights minors have. But, since I tend to get carried away a bit at times, I tried to limit myself here. :)

Those who answered Ethan's original questions DID say that the First Amendment applies to minors. Most of us expanded on the fact that the First Amendment applies to minors by providing options for Ethan in dealing with the whole "going to church with his mom" issue.

One option offered is that Ethan can just go to church with his mom because moms can force their kids to do pretty much anything. No use fighting it.

Another option is that Ethan can present to his mom a well-reasoned argument why he should be left behind come Sunday - perhaps by telling her he is an atheist and/or perhaps by using the same resources provided to him above on free exercise of religion and minors rights under the law (MY preferred option ;)). However his mom can still force him to go to church.

Other options were presented by ErinGoBraugh. He can explore atheism on his own and attend church with his mom. He can start his own group at school or look for a secular organization in his area and attend church with his mom. Or he can PM Erin for additional resources (and attend church with his mom).

Or, Carl's option (which I think was not serious ;)): Ethan could find an "atheist advocacy organization" and an attorney willing to take his case and sue his mom, to force her into recognizing his Constitutional right to a free exercise of religion.

Of course, if the dire consequences his mom has threatened if he doesn't attend church with her are dire enough, Carl's suggestion may make more sense.
 
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You Are Guilty

Senior Member
It seems you forgot the most obvious of possible solutions... converting to Catholicism.









(NB: I said "obvious", not "best" or "most practical").
 

vfielder

Junior Member
Ethan....I'm must say all this is "priceless"

You've yet to say "your not the boss of me" and then run to room, slam the door, start yelling I hate you, I hate you, I hate you and you don't understand me. Welcome to the being 15. Pretty funny...Thanks!

Just like the rest of us at your age when your made to do something that you don't want to do. Old people are stupid...for now
 

ErinGoBragh

Senior Member
Ethan....I'm must say all this is "priceless"

You've yet to say "your not the boss of me" and then run to room, slam the door, start yelling I hate you, I hate you, I hate you and you don't understand me. Welcome to the being 15. Pretty funny...Thanks!

Just like the rest of us at your age when your made to do something that you don't want to do. Old people are stupid...for now

I don't blame him for wanting to know his options, and I think it's the sign of an intelligent young man that he questions things and wants to know his rights.

However, given that, he should still go to church with his mother until he is self-supporting.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Yelling "You're not the boss of me. I hate you, I hate you, I hate you" and then slamming the door is, indeed, another option for Ethan not previously mentioned.


(of course, Ethan might then have a hard time sitting down next to his mom in church when he found he still had to go ;))
 
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