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Any Other Blocked out Fathers?
- Thread starter LilSty
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Boxcarbill
Guest
imxoz said:
Lilsty said:
Boxcarbill said:
Boxcar
I am sorry, my question was not directed at whether you are obligated to represent people like that but more curious if it is something that lawyers think about.
In other words, do attorneys feel better when representing a client who they feel is telling them the correct information as opposed to one they feel may be twisting the truth quite a bit.
I was just being curious as to whether at some point this is something you stop thinking about.
Just being curious.
That's all. No offense intended.
I am sorry, my question was not directed at whether you are obligated to represent people like that but more curious if it is something that lawyers think about.
In other words, do attorneys feel better when representing a client who they feel is telling them the correct information as opposed to one they feel may be twisting the truth quite a bit.
I was just being curious as to whether at some point this is something you stop thinking about.
Just being curious.
That's all. No offense intended.
Whyte Noise
Senior Member
I'm not trying to answer for BCB, or IAAL, or any other attorney on this forum, but I'm just offering my own personal observations.
I've seen attorney's that TELL their clients to make false allegations of abuse just to gain the upper hand. Attorney's that tell their clients to pull unscrupulous acts.... Attorney's that have no conscious whatsoever. To them, it's all about the money, and to hell with if they are actually putting the truth out on the table. Just pay them. You're nothing more than a name on a manila file folder in their cabinet, and they could care 2 sh*ts less on what they do to you and your family, or anyone else for that matter. As long as they make their money.
I've been on this board for over a year now and the 2 attorney's I've dealt with the most on here are BCB and IAAL. Yes, they might be crass and may not say things in a gentle way, but I get the impression that neither one of them are in it just for the money. They could find other ways of making that money with a lot less stress than dealing with Family Law. They won't take you under their wing and coddle you, but what they WILL do is present the truth. From what I've seen on this board, the TRUTH does matter to those 2, because they are quick to point out to a poster any discrepancies in their stories. I can't help but believe that they'd do the same thing in their private practices as well. You have to remember, an attorney can only get the truth that their client gives them. And most clients only give the truth as "they" see it.
Now, whether they continue to represent a client after they find out the client just plain out lied to them, I can't say. But, I'd guess that both of them have dropped cases like a hot potato before because of that reason. Just a gut feeling I have. I do know that if I lived in their states and ever needed the services of an attorney, I'd want someone just like them to represent me. A no holds barred, tear you a new @sshole kind of an attorney. That's just how they come off to me on this board.
Yes, some NCP's do just give up. The financial, emotional, and physical tolls that a custody battle can take on a person is overwhelming. Some just get to the point that they can't take it anymore. Their children might be the most important thing in the world to them, but you can only beat your head against a wall so many times, take so much rejection, and take so much injustice. After a while, you lose faith not only in the system, but also in yourself. And once you lose faith in yourself, what else is there?
I've seen attorney's that TELL their clients to make false allegations of abuse just to gain the upper hand. Attorney's that tell their clients to pull unscrupulous acts.... Attorney's that have no conscious whatsoever. To them, it's all about the money, and to hell with if they are actually putting the truth out on the table. Just pay them. You're nothing more than a name on a manila file folder in their cabinet, and they could care 2 sh*ts less on what they do to you and your family, or anyone else for that matter. As long as they make their money.
I've been on this board for over a year now and the 2 attorney's I've dealt with the most on here are BCB and IAAL. Yes, they might be crass and may not say things in a gentle way, but I get the impression that neither one of them are in it just for the money. They could find other ways of making that money with a lot less stress than dealing with Family Law. They won't take you under their wing and coddle you, but what they WILL do is present the truth. From what I've seen on this board, the TRUTH does matter to those 2, because they are quick to point out to a poster any discrepancies in their stories. I can't help but believe that they'd do the same thing in their private practices as well. You have to remember, an attorney can only get the truth that their client gives them. And most clients only give the truth as "they" see it.
Now, whether they continue to represent a client after they find out the client just plain out lied to them, I can't say. But, I'd guess that both of them have dropped cases like a hot potato before because of that reason. Just a gut feeling I have. I do know that if I lived in their states and ever needed the services of an attorney, I'd want someone just like them to represent me. A no holds barred, tear you a new @sshole kind of an attorney. That's just how they come off to me on this board.
Yes, some NCP's do just give up. The financial, emotional, and physical tolls that a custody battle can take on a person is overwhelming. Some just get to the point that they can't take it anymore. Their children might be the most important thing in the world to them, but you can only beat your head against a wall so many times, take so much rejection, and take so much injustice. After a while, you lose faith not only in the system, but also in yourself. And once you lose faith in yourself, what else is there?
Wow BLCM, you said it all.
That is exactly where I am at right now.
How much is enough?
Enough lies, injustice, deceipt, cruelty.......
And at what toll to oneself and those around them.
I have a lot of thinking to do.
Just looking for examples of people who chose either way - meaining to keep pressing or to just walk away.
Responses seem 50/50.
I guess when it's time to make a decission, I'll know.
Thanks.
That is exactly where I am at right now.
How much is enough?
Enough lies, injustice, deceipt, cruelty.......
And at what toll to oneself and those around them.
I have a lot of thinking to do.
Just looking for examples of people who chose either way - meaining to keep pressing or to just walk away.
Responses seem 50/50.
I guess when it's time to make a decission, I'll know.
Thanks.
I don't think BCB is crass! As for IALL....well....but he can be funny, though!
My husband "gave up". When his ex first started interpreting "reasonable rights of visitation" to mean "I'm not going to make my baby do anything she doesn't want to do" he went to a lawyer (who had come highly recommended ). He was told that there was no telling what it would cost to get him specified visitation because his ex's attorney was well known for fighting everything (more fees for her) that the first thing she would do was ask for more child support (and the amount he was paying was already a strain) and there was a good chance the judge would listen to his ten year old daughters complaints of "I don't want to go see him, I don't like his girlfriend, yadda yadda yadda" He was told he could fight and walk away worse off. He did consider it. In the end, he just decided to let it go. For a while, kept calling even when she refused to speak to him, kept asking her to come see him even when she wouldn't (except to collect gifts). He just figured even with a standard visitation schedule he couldn't undo the damage his ex was doing. And truthfully, he was hurt, too--yes he's supposed to be the adult, but sometimes things just hurt too much. For a few years he had almost no contact with her. His "break" came several months ago. His daughter had her senior retreat at school and their parents had to write them a letter. When the ex brought her letter to school the principal asked "Where's the one from her dad?" and I guess kind of pressured her into it, so she called him and told him. Because his letter was going to be mailed to the school and then given to the child, ex wouldn't get to see it or censor it. Without saying one single ugly thing about her mom, he was able to express his thoughts and feelings. The result is that the two of them both are coming to grips with BOTH of their past actions and he is slowly building a relationship with her
My husband "gave up". When his ex first started interpreting "reasonable rights of visitation" to mean "I'm not going to make my baby do anything she doesn't want to do" he went to a lawyer (who had come highly recommended ). He was told that there was no telling what it would cost to get him specified visitation because his ex's attorney was well known for fighting everything (more fees for her) that the first thing she would do was ask for more child support (and the amount he was paying was already a strain) and there was a good chance the judge would listen to his ten year old daughters complaints of "I don't want to go see him, I don't like his girlfriend, yadda yadda yadda" He was told he could fight and walk away worse off. He did consider it. In the end, he just decided to let it go. For a while, kept calling even when she refused to speak to him, kept asking her to come see him even when she wouldn't (except to collect gifts). He just figured even with a standard visitation schedule he couldn't undo the damage his ex was doing. And truthfully, he was hurt, too--yes he's supposed to be the adult, but sometimes things just hurt too much. For a few years he had almost no contact with her. His "break" came several months ago. His daughter had her senior retreat at school and their parents had to write them a letter. When the ex brought her letter to school the principal asked "Where's the one from her dad?" and I guess kind of pressured her into it, so she called him and told him. Because his letter was going to be mailed to the school and then given to the child, ex wouldn't get to see it or censor it. Without saying one single ugly thing about her mom, he was able to express his thoughts and feelings. The result is that the two of them both are coming to grips with BOTH of their past actions and he is slowly building a relationship with her
Whyte Noise
Senior Member
Heh... frylover, you should see some of his "earlier" posts. 
My SO is one of those that "gave up" for a while. He'd been denied access to his kids for years. Ex always telling him they didn't want to see him, she'd made plans, etc. Always an excuse to deny him his court ordered visitation rights. Just this past Christmas, she flat out told ME... "If he can prove to me that he has presents for them, then I'll bring them by to get them." I'm the type that normally stays out of other's business, but I'd seen what this had done to my SO, I'd seen his tears and frustration, and I'd seen the defeat in his eyes. And yes, I spoke up to her and told her exactly what I thought of her little "ultimatum". Her response to me was, "MY kids aren't staying in HIS house!" And I politely explained to her that unless she was God's newest version of the Virgin Mary or those were "finger babies", they weren't just HER children. Maybe I was wrong for it, but I don't care. Since January, he's had his 2 girls every other weekend, and 2 weeks in June. Still has 2 weeks in July and August to go, on top of his court ordered EOW. (The 2 weeks each month isn't even court ordered.) And in the 3 years we've been together, I've never seen him more complete. He was ready to give up at one point, but he vows he'll never do that again. If his ex does a 180 and starts her crap again, he'll fight her tooth and nail. His words.
My SO is one of those that "gave up" for a while. He'd been denied access to his kids for years. Ex always telling him they didn't want to see him, she'd made plans, etc. Always an excuse to deny him his court ordered visitation rights. Just this past Christmas, she flat out told ME... "If he can prove to me that he has presents for them, then I'll bring them by to get them." I'm the type that normally stays out of other's business, but I'd seen what this had done to my SO, I'd seen his tears and frustration, and I'd seen the defeat in his eyes. And yes, I spoke up to her and told her exactly what I thought of her little "ultimatum". Her response to me was, "MY kids aren't staying in HIS house!" And I politely explained to her that unless she was God's newest version of the Virgin Mary or those were "finger babies", they weren't just HER children. Maybe I was wrong for it, but I don't care. Since January, he's had his 2 girls every other weekend, and 2 weeks in June. Still has 2 weeks in July and August to go, on top of his court ordered EOW. (The 2 weeks each month isn't even court ordered.) And in the 3 years we've been together, I've never seen him more complete. He was ready to give up at one point, but he vows he'll never do that again. If his ex does a 180 and starts her crap again, he'll fight her tooth and nail. His words.
VeronicaGia
Senior Member
BLCM, I'm so glad it worked out. It's too bad you had to step in, cuz you know that could have turned out really bad! It sounded like it was the best thing at the right time!!!
But realistically our poster needs to be ready for anything. He needs to be ready to fight, needs to be ready to be neutral, and needs to be ready to walk away. Unfortunately, that is the state of the NCP now. It's disgraceful, but true.
To LilSty, I don't know if you've been to www.deltabravo.net, but it may be helpful to you. I think you've been there; sometimes knowing that you're not alone will give you the strength to do what is right for you. That's right, right foryou. Sometimes, you have to do what's right for you without considering anyone else.
Only you can make that decision though.
But realistically our poster needs to be ready for anything. He needs to be ready to fight, needs to be ready to be neutral, and needs to be ready to walk away. Unfortunately, that is the state of the NCP now. It's disgraceful, but true.
To LilSty, I don't know if you've been to www.deltabravo.net, but it may be helpful to you. I think you've been there; sometimes knowing that you're not alone will give you the strength to do what is right for you. That's right, right foryou. Sometimes, you have to do what's right for you without considering anyone else.
Only you can make that decision though.
From the psychological standpoint I will make the following suggestion...it may seem a little "girly" but I think your kids would appreciate it.
The communications etc may not make it to them now so keep copies of what you send and when you send them. Keep a diary of your thoughts and such that you would normally share with them. At some point you will get to see them again and you will have these tangible things that cannot be disputed that you cared and you kept trying all the while keeping their best interests in mind.
Just an idea.
The communications etc may not make it to them now so keep copies of what you send and when you send them. Keep a diary of your thoughts and such that you would normally share with them. At some point you will get to see them again and you will have these tangible things that cannot be disputed that you cared and you kept trying all the while keeping their best interests in mind.
Just an idea.
Again, a constant eveyone talks about is the "some day they will realize"
Is that the big unanswered question of the universe?
When usually is that someday?
10 years old?
12?
14?
or older?
If anyone has had experience with the when, I would like to know what time in the future I am looking at for some breakthrough on the kids part.
Is that the big unanswered question of the universe?
When usually is that someday?
10 years old?
12?
14?
or older?
If anyone has had experience with the when, I would like to know what time in the future I am looking at for some breakthrough on the kids part.
Whyte Noise
Senior Member
LilSty
I dont think anyone can give you a definate answer on that. It really depends on the child's maturity.
My 10 year old soon to be stepdaughter realizes what her mom's done. She asked me questions about why her dad didnt see her for those years, and I answered her honestly. The only answer her mother gave her was, "I guess because he doesn't want to" when it was here keeping him away. But, I wasn't going to lie to this child. Again, some may not agree with me saying anything to her, but it was my call. When my own child asks me a question, I answer them honestly, why would I do different for his kids? Just because I didn't give birth to them? I think not. She asked me specific questions, I gave her specific answers. I didn't elaborate further. But SHE knows what her mother has done, and SHE knows why her father didn't see her, and SHE knows that he did try and he called there weekly, and he sent E-mails that she never got, and that his parents send her birthday money she never got. Hell, SHE called her mom on that last one, because her g'parents asked her what she did with her $5 in her card. She didn't know a thing about the money. Her mom took it out before she gave the card to the daughter.
By the same token, my 7 year old soon to be stepdaughter has no clue. All she knows is that her daddy is here. She's not asked, and he's not told her anything. If and when she does though, she'll get the truth too.
Again, it depends on the maturity of the child I think. The 10 year old knew in her heart something wasn't right, and she questioned it. It might take a while for the 7 year old to get to that point, if she ever does.
I dont think anyone can give you a definate answer on that. It really depends on the child's maturity.
My 10 year old soon to be stepdaughter realizes what her mom's done. She asked me questions about why her dad didnt see her for those years, and I answered her honestly. The only answer her mother gave her was, "I guess because he doesn't want to" when it was here keeping him away. But, I wasn't going to lie to this child. Again, some may not agree with me saying anything to her, but it was my call. When my own child asks me a question, I answer them honestly, why would I do different for his kids? Just because I didn't give birth to them? I think not. She asked me specific questions, I gave her specific answers. I didn't elaborate further. But SHE knows what her mother has done, and SHE knows why her father didn't see her, and SHE knows that he did try and he called there weekly, and he sent E-mails that she never got, and that his parents send her birthday money she never got. Hell, SHE called her mom on that last one, because her g'parents asked her what she did with her $5 in her card. She didn't know a thing about the money. Her mom took it out before she gave the card to the daughter.
By the same token, my 7 year old soon to be stepdaughter has no clue. All she knows is that her daddy is here. She's not asked, and he's not told her anything. If and when she does though, she'll get the truth too.
Again, it depends on the maturity of the child I think. The 10 year old knew in her heart something wasn't right, and she questioned it. It might take a while for the 7 year old to get to that point, if she ever does.
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Buggaloo80
Guest
Never Give Up
Lilsty, I know how hard it must be to fight what seems to be a loosing, long, uphill battle, with little or no positive outcomes.
My husband and I have been doing this for umm maybe 2 years now (1 1/2??) and I have seen him get so discouraged at times, he is ready to throw in the towel. I always re-assure him that justice will prevail one way or the other and if a judge thinks a daughter should live with a psycho mother instead of a stable father then so be it, but it won't be because we did not try 110%.
You have to remember the basis of the beginning of all this THE KIDS, if you didn't love them you would not be fighting for them, and as sad as it is to say there are many more fathers out there who have better things to do then raise kids. But the ones who try and fight are the ones who get sh*tted on the most (pardon my language). Many judges and courts have a mind set that Moms are best when it comes to custody, we have been told this by virtually everyone we talk to. We have been told it takes alot to sway a judge to give Dad custody from Mom, BUT it CAN happen! Just never give up!!
And remember this (this is what I tell my husband): keep everything you have got while this on going court stuff happens, KEEP IT ALL, and when the kids grow up and question you PULL IT ALL OUT! Show them the letters she sent back, the e-mails she deleted, the recorded phone messages they never got, show them the cards and gifts you sent and got back, KEEP IT ALL and SHOW IT ALL. Prove to them she was wrong, YOU did want to be a part of their lives! When they are at the age to understand I do not think it is wrong to show them how their other parent kept them from you, not one single bit. Just like I think kids SHOULD see their parents get locked up (for things like denial of visitation, abuse,contempt...etc.), then they SEE with their owns eyes that their actions were wrong, their MOM was wrong not their DAD. I mean not for small children I am talking about kids over 12 or 13.
I truely feel your pain and I want to encourage you from the bottom of my heart not to give up. YOUR kids love you, they may not LIKE you very much now; but it is ONLY because they have been lied to, not because of your actions. Remember, keep on keeping on and this too shall pass.
DONT GIVE UP!
Bugga
Lilsty, I know how hard it must be to fight what seems to be a loosing, long, uphill battle, with little or no positive outcomes.
My husband and I have been doing this for umm maybe 2 years now (1 1/2??) and I have seen him get so discouraged at times, he is ready to throw in the towel. I always re-assure him that justice will prevail one way or the other and if a judge thinks a daughter should live with a psycho mother instead of a stable father then so be it, but it won't be because we did not try 110%.
You have to remember the basis of the beginning of all this THE KIDS, if you didn't love them you would not be fighting for them, and as sad as it is to say there are many more fathers out there who have better things to do then raise kids. But the ones who try and fight are the ones who get sh*tted on the most (pardon my language). Many judges and courts have a mind set that Moms are best when it comes to custody, we have been told this by virtually everyone we talk to. We have been told it takes alot to sway a judge to give Dad custody from Mom, BUT it CAN happen! Just never give up!!
And remember this (this is what I tell my husband): keep everything you have got while this on going court stuff happens, KEEP IT ALL, and when the kids grow up and question you PULL IT ALL OUT! Show them the letters she sent back, the e-mails she deleted, the recorded phone messages they never got, show them the cards and gifts you sent and got back, KEEP IT ALL and SHOW IT ALL. Prove to them she was wrong, YOU did want to be a part of their lives! When they are at the age to understand I do not think it is wrong to show them how their other parent kept them from you, not one single bit. Just like I think kids SHOULD see their parents get locked up (for things like denial of visitation, abuse,contempt...etc.), then they SEE with their owns eyes that their actions were wrong, their MOM was wrong not their DAD. I mean not for small children I am talking about kids over 12 or 13.
I truely feel your pain and I want to encourage you from the bottom of my heart not to give up. YOUR kids love you, they may not LIKE you very much now; but it is ONLY because they have been lied to, not because of your actions. Remember, keep on keeping on and this too shall pass.
DONT GIVE UP!
Bugga
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Lilly Reed
Guest
Well my ex-husband complains that I have tried to turn our daughter against him - when all I have EVER done is encourage her to visit and try to understand him. She see's for herself that he's incapable of having an honest, father-daughter relationship with her - and that he is self-centered and playing the victim by foisting blame onto me.
My advice to you, Lil-sty is to BE a father to your children. Including not allowing them to call you by your first name, or yell at you! Call them on the phone just to talk... Take them on your visitation days - not just to amusement parks, but to places where you all can talk to each other and learn from each other. Help them with their homework. Join a father/child social group at the Y. Be as much of a dad as you can - even though you are not in the home all the time.
If your kids are old enough to reason, talk about what's going on between you. Don't be like my ex! He's the one who is losing out by playing this victim role.
My advice to you, Lil-sty is to BE a father to your children. Including not allowing them to call you by your first name, or yell at you! Call them on the phone just to talk... Take them on your visitation days - not just to amusement parks, but to places where you all can talk to each other and learn from each other. Help them with their homework. Join a father/child social group at the Y. Be as much of a dad as you can - even though you are not in the home all the time.
If your kids are old enough to reason, talk about what's going on between you. Don't be like my ex! He's the one who is losing out by playing this victim role.
LilSty, Please do a search on the names Raddadthomas, Bugaboo, and Butterfree.
My husbands ex witch, i mean wife has fought and fought to keep him out of his childrens lives. to the extent of making false allegations of sexualy abuse to his son and physical abuse to her...went as far as to get a restraining order and claimed under oath that he hit her,,,yeah right. Any way, this THING has drained our family both financially and emotionally. For 3, count them 3 years my husband has not even heard his sons's voices. The closest he got was an emailed pict of them and a report card with his sons information blacked out...name addy teacher school...stuff like that.
This year he has decided that he's already missed out on the most important years. The father/ son bond is gone...his youngest son doesn't even know who he is cuz he was just a baby, and the oldest has probably been told so much that he hates his father.
Children WILL grow up...they WILL learn the truth...and when they do they will HATE their mother for what she has done. His story is so long that there is no way I could explain it all. Long story short, my advice....
Do what you feel is right for you. My husband would probably still be fighting if he didn't have a family that depended on him now, that know who he is and love him. But for that reason, he has postponed his fight...One day, in the future, he will be able to tell his sons the truth...until than, you just build a life for yourself so you'll have something to offer them later.
I will keep you in our prayers. I know what a hard decision this is and you'll need to do what's right for you. Take care and god bless.
My husbands ex witch, i mean wife has fought and fought to keep him out of his childrens lives. to the extent of making false allegations of sexualy abuse to his son and physical abuse to her...went as far as to get a restraining order and claimed under oath that he hit her,,,yeah right. Any way, this THING has drained our family both financially and emotionally. For 3, count them 3 years my husband has not even heard his sons's voices. The closest he got was an emailed pict of them and a report card with his sons information blacked out...name addy teacher school...stuff like that.
This year he has decided that he's already missed out on the most important years. The father/ son bond is gone...his youngest son doesn't even know who he is cuz he was just a baby, and the oldest has probably been told so much that he hates his father.
Children WILL grow up...they WILL learn the truth...and when they do they will HATE their mother for what she has done. His story is so long that there is no way I could explain it all. Long story short, my advice....
Do what you feel is right for you. My husband would probably still be fighting if he didn't have a family that depended on him now, that know who he is and love him. But for that reason, he has postponed his fight...One day, in the future, he will be able to tell his sons the truth...until than, you just build a life for yourself so you'll have something to offer them later.
I will keep you in our prayers. I know what a hard decision this is and you'll need to do what's right for you. Take care and god bless.