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OT - limits of discipline

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mistoffolees

Senior Member
we have no idea what the total picture is here. Maybe there had been prior discussions and they were not successful and this was his next step in a progressive system. We have so little to frame this with.

You don't think he would have said something if they had talked about it earlier? He seems like just the type who would have happily said "If I told you once, I told you a THOUSAND times...."

Of course she wasn't completely ok with the situation but I believe she was ok enough to realize she screwed up big time and deserved some sort of punishment. Whether this was out of line or not is not something I cannot determine without a lot more information.

She undoubtedly realizes that she screwed up. Whether she learned the lesson he THINKS she learned is another matter entirely.
 


justalayman

Senior Member
You don't think he would have said something if they had talked about it earlier? He seems like just the type who would have happily said "If I told you once, I told you a THOUSAND times...."



She undoubtedly realizes that she screwed up. Whether she learned the lesson he THINKS she learned is another matter entirely.

maybe, maybe not.


and the other possibility, especially given the internet as we know it:

it was all BS and put on simply to create a video intended to "go viral". There are financial rewards for doing that.
 

Proserpina

Senior Member
Corporal punishment is legal in a lot of states. But I don't think this story is about corporal punishment at all.

In my mind, corporal punishment when applied in a calm, reasonable, fair manner is OK (I don't believe it's very effective sometimes, but that's a parent's right). If the corporal punishment is applied when the parent has gone ballistic and is just throwing punches, it's wrong. To me, that crosses the line between punishment and abuse.

That's why I brought up this story. As I stated, it felt to me like Dad crossed the line between appropriate and inappropriate behavior - and I was looking for opinions.



I tend to agree, misto.

(Having read it all and a bit more).
 

I'mTheFather

Senior Member
maybe, maybe not.


and the other possibility, especially given the internet as we know it:

it was all BS and put on simply to create a video intended to "go viral". There are financial rewards for doing that.

Yep. The dad has several business ventures, each with its own FB page. The video has been referenced on every one. Free publicity.
 

Isis1

Senior Member
i'm still with dad on this one.

and yes, i have a BIG issue with the whole cleaning lady stuff. dad hired her for his OWN reasons. a barter of sorts. the child does NOT get to determine the hiring staff. she is NOT a servant. if and when i hire one, i will smack my kids upside the head of they dare be disrespectful to him/her by trying to assign duties.
 

Proserpina

Senior Member
i'm still with dad on this one.

and yes, i have a BIG issue with the whole cleaning lady stuff. dad hired her for his OWN reasons. a barter of sorts. the child does NOT get to determine the hiring staff. she is NOT a servant. if and when i hire one, i will smack my kids upside the head of they dare be disrespectful to him/her by trying to assign duties.



A Gibbs-smack?

Awesome. I'm not a fan of physical discipline at all - but sometimes, a Gibbs-smack is not only appropriate, but necessary.

:cool::D
 

tranquility

Senior Member
Corporal punishment is legal in a lot of states. But I don't think this story is about corporal punishment at all.

In my mind, corporal punishment when applied in a calm, reasonable, fair manner is OK (I don't believe it's very effective sometimes, but that's a parent's right). If the corporal punishment is applied when the parent has gone ballistic and is just throwing punches, it's wrong. To me, that crosses the line between punishment and abuse.

That's why I brought up this story. As I stated, it felt to me like Dad crossed the line between appropriate and inappropriate behavior - and I was looking for opinions.
The POINT of my post was to give criteria on which we might measure parental behavior.
(1) a finding that “the parent’s discipline is [not] reasonably related to the purpose of safeguarding or promoting the welfare of the minor,” (2) taking into account “factors such as [a] the nature of the misbehavior, the child’s age and size, and [c] the nature and propriety of the force used."


The punishment WAS reasonably related to the purpose of safeguarding or promoting the welfare of the minor. I'd say your complaint would be factor "c". That the nature and propriety of destroying the notebook by gunfire is excessive.

Without knowing the situation, how can any of us know? Sure, much of the source of the real problem was cemented in when the child was young. Perhaps a grown-up dad would be able to talk daughter out of sticking her fingers in a socket. He didn't and now he has the current situation. I used to get compliments from parents on how well behaved the children I coached were when I was around and at how they listed to me and did as they were told. I would always say something like, "When I tell your kid to pick up her bag, she hears, 'pick up your bag'. When you say it she hears, 'pick up your bag because you're always leaving your bag around and remember when Aunt Betty fell over your bag?'." They're completely different things. While in the cold hard day of writing in some theoretical manner, the actions seem excessive, let me know your thoughts after spending some sleepless nights after discovering the immediate problem and then linking it up with other behaviors.
 
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mistoffolees

Senior Member
i'm still with dad on this one.

and yes, i have a BIG issue with the whole cleaning lady stuff. dad hired her for his OWN reasons. a barter of sorts. the child does NOT get to determine the hiring staff. she is NOT a servant. if and when i hire one, i will smack my kids upside the head of they dare be disrespectful to him/her by trying to assign duties.

Actually, that's not what the cleaning lady bit was all about. Dad simply objected to the child calling her a 'cleaning lady'.
 
I read the follow up story and I don't see anything that changes my opinion. I'm glad they finally sat down and talked, but wouldn't it have been far better if they had had a few of those conversations before he went postal?

He still sounds like a garden variety passive-aggressive father. (I'm partly sensitive to it because my daughter has a friend whose father is exactly like this dad).

And I don't believe for a minute that the daughter was completely OK with the situation. I'll bet her friends would tell you a different story. She may simply have learned that Dad can be violent and is not going to be completely straight with her responses to him.

I saw the video the first day it went viral and immediately began reading up on it. More than anything, the thing that initially bothered me was Dad used an expletive toward his child in a punishment about disrepect that included expletives. However, Dad did later apologize and admit he was wrong about that.

In my further reading, I've come to believe he did absolutely the right things for his parenting situation.

There had been talks when she created a Facebook account, talks about the boundaries and limits, etc. She violated those, lost her facebook and internet for 3 months over something more minor. Then there was a lengthy talk when she got the account back about what was expected. I think he even mentioned that upon the return of her facebook it was explained that she was to regain trust and that the penalties for such acts on her second chance were going to be much more severe. And yes, he had told her at that time that he would put a bullet in the laptop if it happened again.

So, from that standpoint, I agree with Dad that following through on consequences is important to discipline. I would not have taken the actions Dad did, but I don't live their relationship. I know from where I live locally where virtually every household has at least one gun that the reaction is a lot less severe than in areas where guns are not so prevelant. I do believe that personal opinions and views on guns greatly influence the opinion of Dad's discipline.

Next, while the video doesn't make it clear, all the follow up does that Dad may be an IT expert but how she was caught was a teenager thinking she was more clever than everyone else. Teen made the rant and marked it private to everyone in her family and church groups on facebook. Problem was she never add the family's dog's page to either of those groups. Dad logged in as the dog to upload a caption to the dog's pic and there was the whole rant front and center. It wasn't spyware or any invasion of privacy and that alone really influences my opinion of the punishment.

The post was extremely disrespectful. If I understood correctly, the "cleaning lady" was a hard working individual who traded out services. The teen was waaaay out of line to disparage her. So, it becomes clear to me that this teen doesn't just have a problem with her parents and the dynamic of their relationship but it extends out further.

I am an extremely laid back, liberal parent who does not generally believe in physical discipline at all (son had one swipe to the rear when he was in diapers). BUT son completely understands that disrespect of persons results in the harshest punishments including the option of physical discipline.

It hits closer to home re: the cleaning lady because my husband has 3 or 4 individuals that he trades out services with on a semi regular basis. These individuals don't have money for their needed service but are hard workers and my husband always finds something around the house for them to do. I would be very disappointed and upset if son ever referred to any of these men as "the hired help." Son is taught to treat these individuals with the same respect as any other client who might ever come into the office.

The teen's post screamed entitlement. As a female, her chores were minimal and she was extremely exaggerating that the small amount of chores made her so tired she had to go to bed at 10 p.m. Doing her own laundry, making her bed and changing the guest bed linen's once a month became doint laundry and beds for the whole house - gross exaggeration.

I will admit that she hit on one of my pet peeves - "doing dishes" is NOT emtying a dishwasher. I grew up doing dishes and it involved actually washing, drying and putting away dishes, not emptying a clean dishwasher. I was the dishwasher :)

As for shooting the computer versus selling it or giving it away to charity. Ultimately, with all the large offers the family has received to purchase same, this teen is going to end up with a very nice college fund.

To me, that's the bigger argument with viral videos of kids doing cute things or, in cases like this involving a minor being disciplined - do we need federal laws to regulate the money made due to this minors and if it's acceptable for their parents to make them public persons?
 

Isis1

Senior Member
Actually, that's not what the cleaning lady bit was all about. Dad simply objected to the child calling her a 'cleaning lady'.

um...actually dad pointed out she's NOT a cleaning lady. and their arrangement. which does not include what the brat doesn't want to do.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
Actually, that's not what the cleaning lady bit was all about. Dad simply objected to the child calling her a 'cleaning lady'.

actually, the girl said:

we have a cleaning lady. Her name is Linda, not Hannah.

Dad did express his upset the she called her a cleaning lady. What was she supposed to refer to the cleaning lady as: the accountant? the handyman? your concubine?

Dad did describe her as:

we have a lady that cleans the house for us as a favor to trade o-o-off some services.

Dad goes on to say: she is not and you will never refer to her as "the cleaning lady".

I think that describes what most people would call: the cleaning lady
 

Isis1

Senior Member
actually, the girl said:

we have a cleaning lady. Her name is Linda, not Hannah.

Dad did express his upset the she called her a cleaning lady. What was she supposed to refer to the cleaning lady as: the accountant? the handyman? your concubine?

Dad did describe her as:

we have a lady that cleans the house for us as a favor to trade o-o-off some services.

Dad goes on to say: she is not and you will never refer to her as "the cleaning lady".


I think that describes what most people would call: the cleaning lady


in this case. you call her Linda. not the cleaning lady. like dad said.

i suspect Linda is actually a friend of dad's. and assigning the name "cleaning lady" demeans the friendship.
 
actually, the girl said:

we have a cleaning lady. Her name is Linda, not Hannah.

Dad did express his upset the she called her a cleaning lady. What was she supposed to refer to the cleaning lady as: the accountant? the handyman? your concubine?

Dad did describe her as:

we have a lady that cleans the house for us as a favor to trade o-o-off some services.

Dad goes on to say: she is not and you will never refer to her as "the cleaning lady".

I think that describes what most people would call: the cleaning lady

My husband has a few individuals that he trades services with on occasion. One is a local subcontractor. While we don't often need those services, there have been many occasions he has mowed the lawn, blown leaves, etc. I would be very upset if my son referred to him as the "lawn care guy" in a rant about why he shouldn't have to mow the lawn (one of his chores) because we have a lawn care guy. It's disrespectful.
 

Isis1

Senior Member
My husband has a few individuals that he trades services with on occasion. One is a local subcontractor. While we don't often need those services, there have been many occasions he has mowed the lawn, blown leaves, etc. I would be very upset if my son referred to him as the "lawn care guy" in a rant about why he shouldn't have to mow the lawn (one of his chores) because we have a lawn care guy. It's disrespectful.

THANK YOU! exactly!
 

proud_parent

Senior Member
Actually, that's not what the cleaning lady bit was all about. Dad simply objected to the child calling her a 'cleaning lady'.

When I first saw the video several days ago, I didn't pay close attention and started to zone out shortly into Dad's rant. As such, I was under the mistaken impression that one of the child's transgressions had been referring to HER OWN MOTHER as 'the cleaning lady'. :eek:

Taken in that context, it didn't surprise me that several of my Facebook friends were applauding Dad, although his shooting the laptop did strike me as over the top. Had it been me, I would have taken an aluminum bat to it. ;)
 
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