Please Please Help! (long)

[sashaannm]

What is the name of your state? Florida

OK I will try to keep this as short and to the point as possible. Sorry if Im not clear on anything:

Last year my boyfriend opened a court case to re-establish visitation with his children, whom reside with the maternal grandparents (custodial guradians). He went for about 3 years with no contact with the kids due to issues I will get to later. Everything went all good for the most part and in April, the judge closed the case with it being ordered by the court that my boyfriend has visitation rights according to the County Standard Visitation schedule. Well, the schedule was modified a bit to state that my boyfriend gets visitation for the first half of the summer on even numbered years and the last half on odd years. So bf went and picked up the kids on their last day of school, which was May 24th. Thier vacation is 11 weeks long. So if you had to do it specifically-exactly half the summer break-the return date wld have been July 1st. When he picked up the kids, grandparents agreed to a return date of July 5th, so he could spend 4th of july with them.

When he picked up the kids, Grandpa said that K-bf's daughter- had stepped on a piece of metal about a week and a half before, but they pulled it out and she is still limping on it and she is going to "try and pull one over on you to get attention". Well, my friend looked at her foot after they got here (she works at a pediatricians office) and said it looks like something is stll in the foot because its all swollen. So my bf took her to this doctors office, which is an hour closer to us than K's normal doctor. Her insurance (Medicaid) authorized the visit since it wasnt with her normal doc. The doc cldnt get it out, so a cpl days later he took her to ER, and they said she had to go to a podiatrist. Podiatrists were all weeks long wait. Well, we took the kids to Wisconsin for a week. Came back and took her back to the doctor, who scheduled an office surgery with a pediatric surgeon for July 5th. Grandpa starts calling on June 29th demanding the kids be back at his house on July 2nd at 6pm "or else". Well, this was already agreed upon another date and now even the kid had a surgery scheduled. He called and threatend us on the 2nd that he was coming over and J (my bf) was gonna be arrested. We called the local police and they came and took a statement, said it was a Civil matter, unless there was papers with exact dates and times of pickup/delivery of the children, they cldnt get involved. Well Grandpa sends a cop to our house at 1am to do a "spot check" on the kids. They came in my house and shined the light on the kids. Next day a detective from the county where grandparents reside called and tells J if he doesnt return the children immediately, he wld be arrested. j explained to the detective about the surgery and everything, they didnt want to hear it. Well J called Grandpa and asked if he was going to take K to her surgery and he said "absolutely not".
So we called DCF and explained the situation-how Grandma and Grandpa never took K to doctor b4 we picked her up and said that he wasnt going to take her to her surgery so we were concerned for her health. (doctors determined this to be a broken sewing needle still lodged in her foot, btw, by x-rays).

Obviously they(grandparents) knew they boke it off in her foot becuse they either broke the pointy end off or the eye part and they STILL never took her in. DCF was very upset. So we had to take the kids back (with a police escort), and we provided Granparents with the perscription for surgery and everything. DCF knew it wld now be grandparents responsibility to take her to the surgery. They had cops waiting at the surgeons office, and he never took her to the appt. DCF went to their house and told them they had to take her to the doc immed.

Well he refused to let J talk to the kids Thur nite (his court-ordered phone visitation night) and tonight J called to ask how K's foot was and Grandpa went off on him, saying its none of his business (using profanity the entire conversation) that DCF told him not to let J see or speak to the kids, that he was going to come over here and kick J's butt, was going to kill him with his bare hands-hes already got the money set aside for bail in case he has to go to jail, and on and on and on and he has an attorney now and everyone is going down. The doc we took K to called and filed a complaint to DCF also, he said she was going down also. Well, J called DCF caseworker and this man has filed a complaint on J!!!!!!! For what????????????????? He took his child to the doctor!!!!!!!! That is negligent?!? Grandpa said J had absolutely no right to take the child to the doctor because hes not her legal gaurdian and on and on and on... This is just insane. Shouldnt he be happy she got medical attention, so shes not walking around with a damn needle in her foot?! I cant believe this man.

This is why J was unable to see his kids for so long, because this man has serious issues. Hes chased him with a gun 2 times before. Neither of the grandparents work. They live off of child support money and food stamps. There only transportation is a single bencg seat pickup truck and one of the kids has to either stand up or sit on the floor when they go somewhere. the kids are 10, 9, and 7. We do have an attorney, however it is Friday after 5 pm, and are not able to speak with him until Monday. I just want as many opinions on this as possible. What do we do? J is just trying to be a dad to his kids. This man hates J with a passion and doesnt have the kids best intrest at heart in the least. He is acting like a child himself, its so ridiculous. They live in a trailer with holes in the floor yet they have a jacuzzi and a big screen TV and neither work!!!!!!!!!!!! J and I both work our butts off and he pays his child support. We dont know what to do anymore. neither of us can handle all this stress and the cops and the craziness anymore. A lot of men and women dont even bother to be around their kids, and here you have a man going to court and spending tons of money just to be able to see them, and this is what he has to go thru. Does Grandpa have a case here? Are we completely wrong and he is right? Were we wrong to take the child to get medical care while she was in our custody for the summer????????? That is negligent?????? Please give me your opinions on this!

 

[Halls]

Does your bf have joint legal rights to his children or just visitation at this time? because of he doesn't have joint legal decision making than he had no right to make any medical decision, especially a surgical decision on any of his children. Sure, it does appear to be negligent behavior on the part of the grandparents and that can be pointed out to a judge if your bf wants full custody. But again if your bf was making decisions that weren't his to make legally it can end up hurting him as well. Visitation rights does not mean that your bf has legal rights to make medical decisions.

 

[sashaannm]

Thanks Halls
Im not 100% certain. I am going to look through all of the court papers, especially the ones from back in '99 when the kids were placed with the grandparents. Nothing has changed since then except for the recent court hearing we had to re-establish the visitation rights. Im sorry for the lack of info, I was just upset and too eager to get some advice. We were given no information on medical care situations or anything like that. None of that is adressed in the recent court papers. We were under the assumption that since the child was in his care/custody at the time, it seems pretty logical that he was able to make the decision. I mean, wouldnt the doctors office/DCF have said something to us about this by now? I know that the law is very specific though, so I wouldnt be surprised if my bf does get into trouble for taking her to the doctor. And anyway, grandparents were told that she was going to the doctor, and they did not object to it then. If he goes into a court room and says that he is upset that this child got medical attention, and is making a big deal out of it, how will that make him look? HE failed to provide medical care for her. Also, what about the going out of state situation? Is he not allowed to even do that? What the heck. Okay, you are only allowed to go this many miles away from your home???? I dont know. Im so frustrated right now. This man is driven by hate and also by money. He doesnt want to loose his benefits. Its so obvious. But I know what we think and feel has no holding. But thanks for responding, that your question is defintely going to make a difference in this situation. Will post more info when I get it.

 

[Halls]

I have a feeling the grandfather was fine about the doctor's visit but the surgery decision is what set him over and he may have had a right to be upset about that, even if it was neglectful on his part. Get the court order out and read it over and post back what it says about what typeof custody your bf has and what it says on medical care.

 

[sashaannm]

Ok Halls, what I have found so far:

The children were placed in the grandparents care on 2-15-99 and the phrase the court papers use is "temporary custodian". The only thing I can find at all relating to medical treatment says

"The temporary custodian is hereby authorized to provide consent for and to obtain ordinary and necessary medical and dental and psychological treatment and examination for the above child(ren) including but not limited to blood testing deemed medically appropriate, and necessary preventive care, including but not limited to ordinary immunizations and tuberculin testing. The child is to be released to authorized agents of the Department for any medical, legal, investigatory, or other scheduled appointments deemed necessary by the Department."

Also, there is another paper called Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction Act Affidavit which states that the Grandmother has physical custody. Okay-wait a minute. This is a request from DCF to adjudicate the children as dependent (dated 6-30-99).....GREAT!!!!!!!! In laymans terms, this is DCF taking away my bofriends custody rights completely, isnt it? And Grandma gaining full and complete custody? And as far as I know, nothing of that nature has changed, only that he went to court to re-establish visitation rights.. Great we are screwed now. We are trying to take care of this kid and do the right thing, and he will probably looses everything we have worked for. Those kids want to be with Dad so much, they told us repeatedly they wanted to live here with dad. Now he probably wont be able to even see them again. I cant believe this. This is our attorney's responsibility, right, to inform us of this type of thing? Oh, we will have a SERIOUS talk with him first thing Monday morning...Well, so much for doing the right thing. Thanks for your help, now I have done my research with your help, seeing how our attorney didnt do a very good job of it. Thanks again Halls, I appreciate your bringing this to my attention.

 

[IrishLady47]

Why has your boyfriend, the children's father, not obtained custody in the last 7 years? Why were the children placed in the custody of the grandparents in the first place? The reasons may affect what occurred recently. If he was only considered fit enough for visitation, not custody, he may have crossed the line in making medical decisions for children he may not have any legal guardianship type of rights over, father or not.

 

[Shay-Pari'e]

(QUOTE)Also, there is another paper called Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction Act Affidavit which states that the Grandmother has physical custody.(QUOTE)

In a nut shell.

 

[AHA]

Ok Halls, what I have found so far:

The children were placed in the grandparents care on 2-15-99 and the phrase the court papers use is "temporary custodian". The only thing I can find at all relating to medical treatment says

"The temporary custodian is hereby authorized to provide consent for and to obtain ordinary and necessary medical and dental and psychological treatment and examination for the above child(ren) including but not limited to blood testing deemed medically appropriate, and necessary preventive care, including but not limited to ordinary immunizations and tuberculin testing. The child is to be released to authorized agents of the Department for any medical, legal, investigatory, or other scheduled appointments deemed necessary by the Department."

Also, there is another paper called Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction Act Affidavit which states that the Grandmother has physical custody. Okay-wait a minute. This is a request from DCF to adjudicate the children as dependent (dated 6-30-99).....GREAT!!!!!!!! In laymans terms, this is DCF taking away my bofriends custody rights completely, isnt it? And Grandma gaining full and complete custody? And as far as I know, nothing of that nature has changed, only that he went to court to re-establish visitation rights.. Great we are screwed now. We are trying to take care of this kid and do the right thing, and he will probably looses everything we have worked for. Those kids want to be with Dad so much, they told us repeatedly they wanted to live here with dad. Now he probably wont be able to even see them again. I cant believe this. This is our attorney's responsibility, right, to inform us of this type of thing? Oh, we will have a SERIOUS talk with him first thing Monday morning...Well, so much for doing the right thing. Thanks for your help, now I have done my research with your help, seeing how our attorney didnt do a very good job of it. Thanks again Halls, I appreciate your bringing this to my attention.

Where is the kid's mom?

 

[sashaannm]

She (the kids mother) has no intrest or desire to see her children. She has never even tried. She went on to have another child. My boyfriend has tried over and over again to see his kids. grandparents were letting him see the kids for the first couple of years (original court papers state he had supervised visitation). Then they started giving him a hard time and refused to let him see them. He took the cops to the house, but they couldnt MAKE grandparents let him see the kids. This went on for the next 3 years, and all anyone wld tell him was to get a lawyer. I have only been with him since 04 and almost immediately we started saving money for an attorney, and were finally able to obtain legal counsel. I know it sounds horrible, that he shld have done something way before when he did, but the fact is that he has done it and the reason he has "visitation rights" now is because that is whay he petitioned the court for. He knew a judge wasnt going to award instant custody to him, so we thought it best to start off by re-establishing visitation so he could prove himself before going for custody. By no means does he think himself perfect, he knows he made mistakes in the past and is trying to correct himself and his life. Hes trying to have a relationship with the kids and now because of this he may very well loose what he only recently gained. So, I have been reading online and Im seeing all kinds of things that say "Joint Custody" "Visitation Rights", "Joint Custody with Visitation Rights". Im so confused. Im assuming by my previous post regarding the Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction Act Affidavit he has no rights to the children except visitation. And He isnt able to make medical care decisions? Will the medical facilites that saw his daughter be in any kind of trouble for letting him take her in to see them? Im sure my questions probably seem pretty simple to a lot of people, but Im just not sure. Im trying to do my research.

 

[ceara19]

It sounds like DCF has actual CUSTODY. That would also explain why they were able to "order" grandpa to take the child to the surgeon. Even though dad has no legal say in medical treatment for the children, emergency treatment is different. The foot being swollen and sore could be a sign of infection, making immediate care necessary. I doubt that he has anything to worry about as far as the medical issue is concerned.

The medical facilities are not going to be in any trouble. A hospital or other health care provider can treat a patient without proper legal consent in certain situations. The patient in question is a minor. A child can be treated without parental (or custodial) consent in life and death situations. A child can also be treated over the objections of the legal custodian if the treating physician and one other physician both concur that the treatment is medically necessary for the health and well being of the child.

This is not a situation that grandpa is going to want to push. Grandpa has NO excuse for not bring the child to a doctor before dad even picked the kids up for summer visitation. They are on medicaid, it's not like he couldn't afford to bring her to a doctor.

Before calling the lawyer, dad needs to call the DCF caseworker and find out exactly who has LEGAL CUSTODY of the children. If my suspicions are correct and the state has custody, DCF has the ability to remove the children from the grandparents care all together and place them with dad. The goal of DCF is always parental reunification whenever possible.

 

[sashaannm]

Thanks so much Ceara, another very good sugestion to follow up on. I just typed what being adjudicated dependent means and I found this:

A child in substitute care is one who has been adjudicated dependent. They are children and adolescents living outside their homes in the legal custody of a public agency, in any of the following settings:

Shelter homes
Foster family homes
Group homes
Supervised independent living
Residential treatment facilities (RTF)
Transitional living residence
Mobile and outdoor programs (i.e.- boot camps, wilderness programs)
Residential placements, (other than youth development centers).
Kinship care
Children in substitute care may also be delinquent youth who are adjudicated as such by the Juvenile Court and placed in appropriate facilities such as temporary secure juvenile detention center (JDC), secure care or any of the settings listed above. There is no transfer of legal custody to a public agency.

The last sentence of this says there is no tranfer of legal custody, so this would mean my bf still has legal custody rights?

Now on that Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction Act Affidavit I was talking about, it states that Grandma (only Grandma is listed, not Grandpa) has physical custody. There are 3 options-Has physical Custody, Has Custody Rights, and Has Visitation Rights.

Is there a diffrence between physical custody and legal custody? Are they one in the same? Or is that if you have physical custody you automatically get legal custody? Geez, this is a nightmare. But with the help of this site, Im piecing this puzzle together and know the rigt questions to ask. Thank you sooooo much!!!!!!!!

 

[Halls]

Legal custody is the rights a parent/guardian has over their child. Physical custody actually is the time you have the child. For example, a parent who has sole physical custody means that they have the child soley in their possession. A parent who has joint Physical custody is when the parent shares the time they spend with the child with the other parent/guardian. An example of legal custody would be a parent with legal custody has the right to make medical, educational, etc.. decisions over a joint. Joint Legal means the parent or guardian share those same rights with the other parent/guardian.

Does this make sense? I just woke up and haven't had my morning fix yet to get me awake, lol.

 

[weenor]

It sounds like DCF has actual CUSTODY. That would also explain why they were able to "order" grandpa to take the child to the surgeon. Even though dad has no legal say in medical treatment for the children, emergency treatment is different. The foot being swollen and sore could be a sign of infection, making immediate care necessary. I doubt that he has anything to worry about as far as the medical issue is concerned.

The medical facilities are not going to be in any trouble. A hospital or other health care provider can treat a patient without proper legal consent in certain situations. The patient in question is a minor. A child can be treated without parental (or custodial) consent in life and death situations. A child can also be treated over the objections of the legal custodian if the treating physician and one other physician both concur that the treatment is medically necessary for the health and well being of the child.

This is not a situation that grandpa is going to want to push. Grandpa has NO excuse for not bring the child to a doctor before dad even picked the kids up for summer visitation. They are on medicaid, it's not like he couldn't afford to bring her to a doctor.

Before calling the lawyer, dad needs to call the DCF caseworker and find out exactly who has LEGAL CUSTODY of the children. If my suspicions are correct and the state has custody, DCF has the ability to remove the children from the grandparents care all together and place them with dad. The goal of DCF is always parental reunification whenever possible.

C- I would say you are correct. Once the agency establishes dependency the child is a ward of the agency. The only thing that is not right here that I see is that the agency is required file for the termination of parental rights after a certain amount of time (and the failure ole' plan for unification with the natural parents). After this length of time I have a hard time believing that either one of the natural parents have any rights. BF needs to contact DCF and get the scoop.

 

[sashaannm]

Also, grandpa told my bf that it is none if his ******** business how his daughters foot is and that DCF told him not to allow my bf any type of contact with the kids, not even to allow his court ordered phone visitation. Well next weekend is my bf's weekend to have the kids, and grandpa told my bf that if comes over there to pick them up, even with a police escort, that he would kill him with his bare hands, and that he has the money set aside for bail if he has to go to jail.. My bf did call DCF yesterday and they told him that they cannot interfere in court orders (the visitation), that they can olny remove the child from the home if they are in danger. The DCF worker said he should go ahead and go to pick the kids up with a cop and unless grandpa has a cease order from the court, there is no reason he cant take the kids. So now he has worry about being physically harmed...again..... So I guess we will be filing for an emergency hearing next week and will be in court ASAP. He acuses my bf of violating the court orders when he didnt have them back on July 2nd, yet now he is refusing to let him speak to his kids and is making death threats. We have phone records of the past few months where my bf tried calling the kids on his scheduled nites, how they never answered the phone.....Craziness...

 

[Halls]

ok, did your bf report the threat made because that is what I would have done. If he feels threatened he can take a police with him to witness transfer during your bf's visitation time.