summer vacation issues, complicated

[onebreath]

I went to pick up daughter this morning at 10 am. I pick her up every Monday, whether from school or at dads at 10 during the summer. He lives way out in the country. About 3 minutes before I got there I received a call from him on my cell, he said "-------(daughter) is expecting you to pick her up this morning, and this is my second one week vacation". I said this is the first I have heard of this, and he insists its his vacation. I say I will be there in a minute.

I get there, he's got his big truck (he's a caretaker on a rich farm) pulled up to the gate so I can't drive in. I feel clearheaded and am positive he never announced this to either of us...if he had I probably would have said OK. So I feel he is in the wrong due to lack of information and communication. I park in front of his truck and gets out all puffed up as if he will physically restrain me. He says you are trespassing, very angry and cold, etc. I stayed calm and simply asked, "when did you inform me of this vacation time?" He said, "look at your emails (joke, no info on this vacation)....I asked a couple of more times to get understanding but he plays his little boy one liner responses...refuses to answer me. So I walk around him and take the long walk to his ranch house. My intention is to simply pick up daughter as court ordered and as planned. Meanwhile he's on his cell calling the sheriff (headquarters a LONG way away). I get to the house and knock and while walking through the farm I am sweetly calling my daughters name....Not in the barn or house....where has he put her? I realize this is a no go but don't understand the lack of email contact, telephone contact (before 3 minutes before the visit) stating there seems to be confusion....

Anyway, I left. After I get home, a sheriff calls me and gets my side of the story. We both awknowledge there is nothing he can do, but he gave me the number saying he wants to document as a domestic something incident. I said fine, he was nice and heard me well. I told him I had just been thinking of taking this to court to get vacations clarified and he agreed that was his advice.

Can my ex just unilaterally decide at the last minute to take his second week vacation like this, informing me 3 minutes before pickup???? I have no doubt daughter distressed about this....esp when I realize he tucked her away somewhere to have no contact with me. She has been court ordered to have play therapy for years due to her animosity towards her dad. I pay $90 every other week so he can further pull acts like this every few months, triggering her feelings of alienation with him....I know I don't have control over him but cannot help but ask him, what results is he hoping to get with daughter by acting like this?

The only thing I can figure to request in the court order, when I do go to court around vacations, is that on the parents' year (alternating) who gets first dibs on vacation times that summer....they do so by April 1st. The other parent that year has by April 30th to make vacation plans. ****If either parent has not made plans by that time, they forfeit rights to their vacation with child that year, unless they are very sick or extenuating circumstances prevented their being on time, and/or if the other parent is agreeable to vacation plans made after those dates. **** Does that seem reasonable?

Some major conflict happens every summer it seems, and it should be so clearcut.

Thanks in advance for your feedback. Onebreath.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

Might want to go with:

Even years, mother shall have first rights to select two weeks uninterrupted parenting time, to be selected in one week time frames. THis must be communicated to the father by April 1 for the upcoming summer.

You can repeat same verbage, but reversing for odd years.

If no vacation is selected by this time, then the following weeks shall be considered the selected weeks:

you fill in the weeks for either party.

Neither party gets shorted out of their weeks. Black and white.

 

[wileybunch]

The only thing I can figure to request in the court order, when I do go to court around vacations, is that on the parents' year (alternating) who gets first dibs on vacation times that summer....they do so by April 1st. The other parent that year has by April 30th to make vacation plans. ****If either parent has not made plans by that time, they forfeit rights to their vacation with child that year, unless they are very sick or extenuating circumstances prevented their being on time, and/or if the other parent is agreeable to vacation plans made after those dates. **** Does that seem reasonable?

I don't think that's sufficient to have to speak up by 4/30 or no way, no dice. I don't know how much vacation time either of you are allowed in the summer, but I would think after the 4/30 deadline, there should still be a vacation allowed with 30 days' notice so if on 6/1 he says he wants her the week of 7/15, if you haven't given him vacation notice (depending on your summer parenting timeshare that I don't know of), then he should be able to take that time.

P.S. I also like Ginny's idea because it's more set in stone for situations that are rife w/problems and need as much black/white as possible.

 

[LdiJ]

I don't think that's sufficient to have to speak up by 4/30 or no way, no dice. I don't know how much vacation time either of you are allowed in the summer, but I would think after the 4/30 deadline, there should still be a vacation allowed with 30 days' notice so if on 6/1 he says he wants her the week of 7/15, if you haven't given him vacation notice (depending on your summer parenting timeshare that I don't know of), then he should be able to take that time.

P.S. I also like Ginny's idea because it's more set in stone for situations that are rife w/problems and need as much black/white as possible.

Personallly, I think that the every two week exchange during the summer eliminates all problems, and makes the most sense....particularly based on your last post.

 

[onebreath]

Thank you sincerely for your advice...its interesting being on the other end of things.

I like both Ginny J's advice, and wileybunch...in that they are both realistic for our situation so I will consider both deeply.

I always appreciate your feedback LdiJ, yet after the last posts' I have had time to think...and my daughter has much animosity/hatred towards her dad for a variety of reasons. One reason this morning distressed me so much was thinking of her...I can only hope he is taking her camping or doing something superfun instead of sitting around at home where she can think and stew. She is not very comfy with her dad more than one week at a time.

While the two weeks seems like a great solution....I am just considering (have no idea yet) of proposing a one week on one week off in the summer and somehow just going with that for planned two week vacations. Its already in the court order that if daughter is gone for 2 week vacations she is to immediately return to the other parent for a 48 hour visit. Perhaps that will suffice if we have one week on and off and daughter is separated for 3 weeks from one parent.

Or.....I still need to think on this. Daughter has been court ordered for years to play therapy and the main reason is animosity towards dad....she takes him in as small of doses as she can. This is not because of me. I want more than anything for her to be happy, and frankly at times, I have been ready to go 50/50 but know she is not emotionally ready. He has hurt her in the past...a CPS case was opened completely outside of me....but kind of flaked out....the climax to many incidence's....

I wonder if its this hard for other high conflict parents...summertime vacations?

 

[wileybunch]

I wonder if its this hard for other high conflict parents...summertime vacations?

YES!!!
DH's youngest is 13yo and 1-week visits -- unless we're going somewhere doing something super fun -- is "too long" of a visit at a stretch during their 50/50 summer visitation, according to Mom. Getting a summer schedule was like pulling teeth (last summer Mom violated the court order completely in the summer, no contact at all) so DH is planning to a week on/week off rotation, Sunday PM to Sunday PM throughout summer, period, end of story (with other parent to have a "dinner date" for 3 hours one night during other parents' time).

 

[onebreath]

wiley bunch,

Hard to imagine....its probably what one gets used to. I would prefer ex took 9 year old for two weeks just to get it over with. I do respect dads who are patient though, prob part of what you liked...my new batteries have run dry...alas...

 

[LdiJ]

Thank you sincerely for your advice...its interesting being on the other end of things.

I like both Ginny J's advice, and wileybunch...in that they are both realistic for our situation so I will consider both deeply.

I always appreciate your feedback LdiJ, yet after the last posts' I have had time to think...and my daughter has much animosity/hatred towards her dad for a variety of reasons. One reason this morning distressed me so much was thinking of her...I can only hope he is taking her camping or doing something superfun instead of sitting around at home where she can think and stew. She is not very comfy with her dad more than one week at a time.

While the two weeks seems like a great solution....I am just considering (have no idea yet) of proposing a one week on one week off in the summer and somehow just going with that for planned two week vacations. Its already in the court order that if daughter is gone for 2 week vacations she is to immediately return to the other parent for a 48 hour visit. Perhaps that will suffice if we have one week on and off and daughter is separated for 3 weeks from one parent.

Or.....I still need to think on this. Daughter has been court ordered for years to play therapy and the main reason is animosity towards dad....she takes him in as small of doses as she can. This is not because of me. I want more than anything for her to be happy, and frankly at times, I have been ready to go 50/50 but know she is not emotionally ready. He has hurt her in the past...a CPS case was opened completely outside of me....but kind of flaked out....the climax to many incidence's....

I wonder if its this hard for other high conflict parents...summertime vacations?

Well...based on this post I agree that a two week rotation probably isn't in the best interest of your child.

Another possible option would be to have your two week period be a fixed one (if that works for your employer). IE you always get the last two FULL weeks in June.

 

[CJane]

I wonder if its this hard for other high conflict parents...summertime vacations?

My kids are spending FIVE WEEKS w/their Dad. I have had almost NO contact with my children at all since June 27, and likely won't until I get them back on August 5. None. We live 3 miles from each other and I won't even lay eyes on them.

Of course it's hard. But honestly? I think if the kid has been in therapy for YEARS, she really ought to be to a point where she can stand to be around her father for 14 days at a time. Grand scheme of things, that's not all that long.

It's really sounding like you're making excuses for why real solutions won't work.

 

[casa]

Thanks LdiJ,

Part of my problem (there are many I haven't mentioned) are that the last time we went to court, we agreed ex and I would make changes in email, which is how we communicate. However I can tell ex thinks that means more long term changes can be made by casual agreement via email...and I know this is not true. I have requested at least 5 times that for issues that come up, issues he brings up...that we be willing to write it up for a judge....and he always ignores me and says email is good enough.

Check your Court Order. He may be correct. It's somewhat normal to have the inclusion "agreements by mutual consent" or "written agreements" to allow for changes between the parents without a court appearance/hearing for any single thing that comes up.

And at any rate, if you do NOT agree, why agree in e-mail at all?

I think I will have to go draft a proposed court order type deal and send it over email....or via mail...something to let him know I am serious about making legal changes. Not trying to be difficult, but this man makes the littlest request difficult. We have done coparent counseling etc., and its impossible. It took 2 1/2 sessions for him to be willing to TRADE with me some time so that I could take daughter to NC in June (outside of court order)....to stay at a very nice cottage right on the coast with all her cousins and aunts, uncles, grandmommy (last time we both saw her conscious) and granddaddy....a trip she will never forget and dad tried to deny because it was in June....and would give only if I gave him 50/50 custody. Later, the coparent counselor who witnessed this told the appt court mediator that he thought dad should have 50/50, despite the last sessions we had where counselor informed me in front of dad that he seriously thought dad needed years of counseling to be able to relate to females...

I got left hanging with this turnaround counselor. Hopefully in court (because the mediator always wants to talk to current counselors), daughters play therapist will relay she recommended more time with me for child, and dad denied. But I don't even trust that...all the super expensive coparent counseling and play therapy...no one ever really speaks up for daughter....its all about the parents.

I'm truly sorry to go on...its just been such a long ordeal its hard not to attach things to what is asked...and I still have a lot of feelings about how things have gone down.

BOTTOM LINE I don't know how to go about getting ex to agree to whatever, and then drawing it up...who writes out the plan, who submits it to court? If push came to shove, he will attach requests.....onebreath

You just file for a modification of summer visitation schedule. Request Mediation. Go from there.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

I wonder if its this hard for other high conflict parents...summertime vacations?

Mine is considered one that is high-conflict with the width of the case file to prove it.

I can only control what happens on MY time. After the last show down in court, this has been the quietest it has EVER been between us. We actually facilitated several 'extra' parenting times.

It is possible. What happened? Maybe I changed my attitude. Not a maybe. I CHANGED my attitude.

Listen to the seniors. It really helps.

 

[onebreath]

Thanks for your imput Ginny J, LdiJ, and everyone else,

I read back to the beginning. Ohiogirl suggested a one week on and off and so now I am looking at that. The only problem I forsee is dad. He is the one who requested in a custody eval update (that I requested and was granted as court order....a alternative special master)...that he didn't trust me via our current schedule as I then had one full week every other week with daughter, so IF I had taken that one week plus one other week for vacation, then coming back he would have been 3 weeks without daughter. But, if we both had a week on and off in the summer that would make all equal, unless he gets paranoid and asks for lots of stipulations. *Thats my big concern, is that both parents can easily choose vacation times with daughter in the summer without so many restrictions.

As it is, he gets 8 days each one week vacation time, and I get my 14 days to go on the ardous trip out of state, blah blah.

My thing is getting a court order around dad...not to manipulate him at all, but to just get some basic generic vacation time so that we both have more freedom to pick and choose, and he won't get paranoid about my having more time than him (which is funny as now he has more time than me, but I'm not sweating it - nor is HE). One week on and off...we could each choose our time and its fair game.

QUESTION is there some generic protocol for when parents take vacation time within their visitation schedules? Do they generally take vacation on the longest time of their vistitation period? How does this work. When I personally work out when I would choose to take vacation time with daughter (in contrast to court order) the time for dad works out the same.

Any experiences out there? In general I am seriously considering requesting the one week on and off for summer...so that we each have fair play for vacation times....I suppose that would need to include the mandatory 48 hour period upon return (child with the other parent).

CJANE, I welcome more feedback on ages of your children and exp. My daughter is court ordered to have expensive play therapy weekly upon dads' request...no less, because of longstanding issues she has with him. Play therapy has not helped much...a little, but not much...he doesn't change which is the deal and she flat doesn't like him in some ways...he's a weird dude and hurts her sometimes. I try to get her to like him, or at least respect him, but she is stubborn and her mind is her mind. I wish things were better...if it were up to me I'd want to split summers in half, but she has a hard time tolerating even a 2 week split. I bet its hard being away from your children for so long...but I admire you for the freedom.

 

[LdiJ]

Thanks for your imput Ginny J, LdiJ, and everyone else,

I read back to the beginning. Ohiogirl suggested a one week on and off and so now I am looking at that. The only problem I forsee is dad. He is the one who requested in a custody eval update (that I requested and was granted as court order....a alternative special master)...that he didn't trust me via our current schedule as I then had one full week every other week with daughter, so IF I had taken that one week plus one other week for vacation, then coming back he would have been 3 weeks without daughter. But, if we both had a week on and off in the summer that would make all equal, unless he gets paranoid and asks for lots of stipulations. *Thats my big concern, is that both parents can easily choose vacation times with daughter in the summer without so many restrictions.

As it is, he gets 8 days each one week vacation time, and I get my 14 days to go on the ardous trip out of state, blah blah.

My thing is getting a court order around dad...not to manipulate him at all, but to just get some basic generic vacation time so that we both have more freedom to pick and choose, and he won't get paranoid about my having more time than him (which is funny as now he has more time than me, but I'm not sweating it - nor is HE). One week on and off...we could each choose our time and its fair game.

QUESTION is there some generic protocol for when parents take vacation time within their visitation schedules? Do they generally take vacation on the longest time of their vistitation period? How does this work. When I personally work out when I would choose to take vacation time with daughter (in contrast to court order) the time for dad works out the same.

Any experiences out there? In general I am seriously considering requesting the one week on and off for summer...so that we each have fair play for vacation times....I suppose that would need to include the mandatory 48 hour period upon return (child with the other parent).

CJANE, I welcome more feedback on ages of your children and exp. My daughter is court ordered to have expensive play therapy weekly upon dads' request...no less, because of longstanding issues she has with him. Play therapy has not helped much...a little, but not much...he doesn't change which is the deal and she flat doesn't like him in some ways...he's a weird dude and hurts her sometimes. I try to get her to like him, or at least respect him, but she is stubborn and her mind is her mind. I wish things were better...if it were up to me I'd want to split summers in half, but she has a hard time tolerating even a 2 week split. I bet its hard being away from your children for so long...but I admire you for the freedom.

The theory behind that kind of order, is to ensure that a parent doesn't craft their vacations in order to take the maximum amount of time away from the other parent. In other words, to ensure that the vacations take the minimum amount of time away from the other parent.

One of our other posters here, Profmum, has a situation where they each have 30 days of vacation. Her ex attempted (and failed due to court intervention) to take his vacation piecemeal, using only HER parenting days as vacation days, which meant she would have gone for two full months without seeing the child.

That is what courts or court professionals try to avoid by making those kinds of restrictions.

So, if you had every other week, and you choose only his weeks for your vacation weeks, you could effectively separate the child from him for a full month if there were no restrictions of that nature.

 

[wileybunch]

My daughter is court ordered to have expensive play therapy weekly upon dads' request...no less, because of longstanding issues she has with him. Play therapy has not helped much...a little, but not much...he doesn't change which is the deal and she flat doesn't like him in some ways...he's a weird dude and hurts her sometimes. I try to get her to like him, or at least respect him, but she is stubborn and her mind is her mind. I wish things were better...if it were up to me I'd want to split summers in half, but she has a hard time tolerating even a 2 week split. I bet its hard being away from your children for so long...but I admire you for the freedom.

She's 9 now, right? I'm not a psychologist, but given your description of her being stubborn and knowing what she wants, etc. she seems past play therapy and ready for regular sessions with an LCSW or similar.

 

[casa]

Thanks for your imput Ginny J, LdiJ, and everyone else,

I read back to the beginning. Ohiogirl suggested a one week on and off and so now I am looking at that. The only problem I forsee is dad. He is the one who requested in a custody eval update (that I requested and was granted as court order....a alternative special master)...that he didn't trust me via our current schedule as I then had one full week every other week with daughter, so IF I had taken that one week plus one other week for vacation, then coming back he would have been 3 weeks without daughter. But, if we both had a week on and off in the summer that would make all equal, unless he gets paranoid and asks for lots of stipulations. *Thats my big concern, is that both parents can easily choose vacation times with daughter in the summer without so many restrictions.

As it is, he gets 8 days each one week vacation time, and I get my 14 days to go on the ardous trip out of state, blah blah.

My thing is getting a court order around dad...not to manipulate him at all, but to just get some basic generic vacation time so that we both have more freedom to pick and choose, and he won't get paranoid about my having more time than him (which is funny as now he has more time than me, but I'm not sweating it - nor is HE). One week on and off...we could each choose our time and its fair game.

QUESTION is there some generic protocol for when parents take vacation time within their visitation schedules? Do they generally take vacation on the longest time of their vistitation period? How does this work. When I personally work out when I would choose to take vacation time with daughter (in contrast to court order) the time for dad works out the same.
Any experiences out there? In general I am seriously considering requesting the one week on and off for summer...so that we each have fair play for vacation times....I suppose that would need to include the mandatory 48 hour period upon return (child with the other parent).

CJANE, I welcome more feedback on ages of your children and exp. My daughter is court ordered to have expensive play therapy weekly upon dads' request...no less, because of longstanding issues she has with him. Play therapy has not helped much...a little, but not much...he doesn't change which is the deal and she flat doesn't like him in some ways...he's a weird dude and hurts her sometimes. I try to get her to like him, or at least respect him, but she is stubborn and her mind is her mind. I wish things were better...if it were up to me I'd want to split summers in half, but she has a hard time tolerating even a 2 week split. I bet its hard being away from your children for so long...but I admire you for the freedom.

Standard typically entails week on/week off....but also can be e/o/2 weeks. It's not unreasonable to ask for the parent to use visitation time during their longest periods of custody.