Summer Visitation Question

[justlilolme]

This is where I believe that you're incorrect. Again, speak to an attorney (many offer free consults) in your area, but don't be at all surprised to learn that any decisions made NOW that affect HIS custodial period are not yours to make.

Okay, again, not to agrue but just as a matter of clarification ... what exactly are you basing this opion on? That is not how the order reads.

It is not just an infringement on dad's time. It greatly affects everyone's time with the child for the summer.

HIS time, as you put it, does not have definitive dates put on it as mom has the option of having the child for the first three weeks of summer if she wants and then summer school would still start during mom's time anyway.

The language of the order says that "The visitation period shall not begin sooner than one week following the end of school for the summer vacation and end not later than one week prior to the start of school in the Fall ..." There are no definitive dates on anything.

Summer starting when the 'official' school year ends and not taking into consideration summer school ... what was that opion based on, as well? Is that a legal interpretation? I've been googling my butt off and can't seem to find anything that definitively defines when summer starts or whether or not summer school is taken into consideration.

Again, not trying to agrue ... debate a little, maybe, but not argue. I just want to fully understand all options and legalities prior to making any final decsions regarding this matter.

 

[CJane]

Okay, again, not to agrue but just as a matter of clarification ... what exactly are you basing this opion on? That is not how the order reads.

It is not just an infringement on dad's time. It greatly affects everyone's time with the child for the summer.

HIS time, as you put it, does not have definitive dates put on it as mom has the option of having the child for the first three weeks of summer if she wants and then summer school would still start during mom's time anyway.

I'm basing the opinion on my experience with Missouri parenting plans/custody issues.

While summer school would START during your parenting time, if you chose to exercise the first three weeks of summer as your period, it would still infringe upon the father's time. It's not within your rights to infringe upon his time without his agreement. So, even if you decide to enroll the child in summer school, you run the risk of being ordered to cut summer school short and send the child to her father's house at the end of the 3 weeks you've chosen to exercise.

The language of the order says that "The visitation period shall not begin sooner than one week following the end of school for the summer vacation and end not later than one week prior to the start of school in the Fall ..." There are no definitive dates on anything.

Summer starting when the 'official' school year ends and not taking into consideration summer school ... what was that opion based on, as well? Is that a legal interpretation? I've been googling my butt off and can't seem to find anything that definitively defines when summer starts or whether or not summer school is taken into consideration.

That is strictly my opinion. I think that you'd have a VERY hard time getting the idea of summer vacation beginning after summer school past a judge if it came down to a hearing. IMO, summer vacation begins at the end of the part of the school year that is compulsory. Regardless of the reasoning behind the summer school (I attended summer enrichment programs all throughout school), if it interferes with Dad's time, it's up to him whether or not the program continues.

IMO, you will be violating a court order if you refuse to send the child to father's house for the duration of summer vacation (excluding the 4 weeks that are 'yours').

Again, not trying to agrue ... debate a little, maybe, but not argue. I just want to fully understand all options and legalities prior to making any final decsions regarding this matter.

You need to consult an attorney.

 

[bliss_in_texas]

Suggestion

I am not trying to agrue, but trying to understand. To me, the court order reads that if mom and dad don't agree then the decision is made by the parent who THEN has physical custody of the child. To me, that says at the time that the decision has to be made.

No one is trying to infringe on anyone's time and both parents love their child very much. Dad's feelings are just hurt because he lives so far away and doesn't get a great deal of time with his child. Mom doesn't trust dad to handle summer school because dad doesn't even make sure the child gets homework done when the child is on visitation with him at all and that is one of the reasons for the poor grades. Dad tends to spend his time with the child wanting to amusement park type things rather than real parenting things, like summer school. Not to knock dad, it is understandable considering his feelings and the situation; however, it is the child's personal growth and needs that need to be taken into consideration.

Compromise - Ask Dad to takeh child to tutoring ie. Slyan or some such - a couple times a week for an hour or two. Split the cost. That way Dad gets time, with a little break when child is in with tutor -Mom is satisfied with the academic attention, child gets the best of both.

 

[Ron1347]

'Summer starting when the 'official' school year ends and not taking into consideration summer school ... what was that opion based on, as well? Is that a legal interpretation? I've been googling my butt off and can't seem to find anything that definitively defines when summer starts or whether or not summer school is taken into consideration.'

I'm sorry but, 'when' summer starts is right there in front of you! Official Summer Break 'starts', the last day of official regular school letting out for the last day of the regular school year, as it pertains to a visitation schedule. The 'end' of summer, as it pertains to a visitation schedule, is the last day of Summer Break, prior to the following day being the 'first' day back to a new school year beginning. No court order could 'specify' an 'exact' date for such a beginning or end, as every school district could be a different end and start date. Or, possibly a transer of school/district in the interim. Thus, the court will leave it to an 'obvious' and 'common sense' conclusion as to an ending and starting of Summer Break. That's certainly the way it is viewed 'here'.

And...I 'just' checked with an on-line Michigan attorney via e-mail. He says (if this were 'my' son 'here'), that 'NO', my son CANNOT enroll his little boy in Summer School, and cut that time out of the mother's scheduled summer visitation. Not without 'her' consent to relinquish 'her' time.

 

[justlilolme]

I'm basing the opinion on my experience with Missouri parenting plans/custody issues.

Thank you, that is what I wanted to know.

That is strictly my opinion. I think that you'd have a VERY hard time getting the idea of summer vacation beginning after summer school past a judge if it came down to a hearing. IMO, summer vacation begins at the end of the part of the school year that is compulsory. Regardless of the reasoning behind the summer school (I attended summer enrichment programs all throughout school), if it interferes with Dad's time, it's up to him whether or not the program continues.

Again thank you for your opinion, and for answering my question.

Is there anyone else that has ever had this problem that can share thier opinions and experiences?

Is there anyone that is an attorney or that through their own legal experiences can tell me what the actual legal interpretation is?

Thank you again CJane, for your opinions and your time.

 

[justlilolme]

'Summer starting when the 'official' school year ends and not taking into consideration summer school ... what was that opion based on, as well? Is that a legal interpretation? I've been googling my butt off and can't seem to find anything that definitively defines when summer starts or whether or not summer school is taken into consideration.'

I'm sorry but, 'when' summer starts is right there in front of you! Official Summer Break 'starts', the last day of official regular school letting out for the last day of the regular school year, as it pertains to a visitation schedule. The 'end' of summer, as it pertains to a visitation schedule, is the last day of Summer Break, prior to the following day being the 'first' day back to a new school year beginning. No court order could 'specify' an 'exact' date for such a beginning or end, as every school district could be a different end and start date. Or, possibly a transer of school/district in the interim. Thus, the court will leave it to an 'obvious' and 'common sense' conclusion as to an ending and starting of Summer Break. That's certainly the way it is viewed 'here'.

That is a matter of interpretation and opinion. Thank you for your interpretation and opinion.

And...I 'just' checked with an on-line Michigan attorney via e-mail. He says (if this were 'my' son 'here'), that 'NO', my son CANNOT enroll his little boy in Summer School, and cut that time out of the mother's scheduled summer visitation. Not without 'her' consent to relinquish 'her' time.

Here in Missouri the courts take education very seriously. The order states "her summer vacation from school" ... well summer school is in fact SCHOOL. CJane explained to her opinion and interpretation to me as "IMO, summer vacation begins at the end of the part of the school year that is compulsory." While I don't necessarily agree with that, I understand it and can certainly respect that opinion. In my own opinion I think that there are many school programs and situations that courts do take into consideration that are not necessarily compulsory.

Again, thank you for your input and your opinion.

 

[CJane]

Here in Missouri the courts take education very seriously. The order states "her summer vacation from school" ... well summer school is in fact SCHOOL.

I'm in Missouri as well. And I know for a FACT (after conferring with my attorney recently) that ANY non-compulsory educational decisions that interfere with the other parent's time require the consent of the other parent. It has nothing to do with taking education seriously, and everything to do with not allowing one parent to use 'summer school' or 'tutoring' to interfere with the other parent's time.

I realize that you want to be told that you're well within your rights, and you want to be patted on the back for having such concerns about education, but the fact remains that you're attempting to use summer school as an excuse to take time away from dad. Time that he already has a limited amount of, according to you. (Though if his time is so limited, I fail to see how time with him has ANYTHING to do with the academic failings of the child, as you implied).

 

[justlilolme]

I'm in Missouri as well. And I know for a FACT (after conferring with my attorney recently) that ANY non-compulsory educational decisions that interfere with the other parent's time require the consent of the other parent. It has nothing to do with taking education seriously, and everything to do with not allowing one parent to use 'summer school' or 'tutoring' to interfere with the other parent's time.

THAT is in fact very useful information! Thank you!

I realize that you want to be told that you're well within your rights, and you want to be patted on the back for having such concerns about education, but the fact remains that you're attempting to use summer school as an excuse to take time away from dad. Time that he already has a limited amount of, according to you. (Though if his time is so limited, I fail to see how time with him has ANYTHING to do with the academic failings of the child, as you implied).

I do not recall ever stating that I was mom, or that I was dad, or that I was a party to the action, or that I was trying to do anything ... simply because it is not important to the FACTS at hand and because I don't want biased opinions.

The comment I made regarding the father's contribution to the poor grades were due to missing assignments because when the child has visitation time with dad during the school year HE FAILS to make sure the child's homework gets done. That fact is very easily verified through the teachers records at school and the exercised visitation time.

I NEVER implied that the child had academic failings but simply some poor grades, which IMHO, there is a difference. My idea of poor grades varies from each of my children, based on thier individual abilities; and has nothing to do with what the school considers failing or passing.

Thank you for all of your input CJane. It is always great to get another point of view and to bounce around all ideas and options.

 

[LdiJ]

Summer vacation begins at the end of the official school year. Summer school is as voluntary as summer camp is. The child is not required to attend, and any decisions regarding what the child does during the father's custodial periods are up to the father. Yes, the decision must be made earlier than that, but the actual time frame is his.

Contact an attorney in your area for an actual legal interpretation of the parenting plan, but I think you're going to find out that the decision to infringe upon his parenting time by sending the child to summer school is not yours to make.

That isn't always correct. For some children summer school may be required.
Again, I would urge both parties to find out whether or not the child can be enrolled in summer school in dad's community.

 

[Inquiry123]

Crystal Ball

This is what the future holds...

...Summer School is NOT mandatory...

...Mother not able to schedule activities without agreement during Father's visitation time...

...Mother will have 3 weeks with the child following the last day of the normal school year...

...Father will have the child after that 3 week period...Father will pay for transportation...

...the child will not attend Summer School in any community...this year...or any year...

...Ferris wheel, cotton candy, roller coaster, swimming...lots of swimming. And TV...no books in sight...

...the child grows...bigger...bigger...and turns out OK.

For additional info dial 1-888-512-3677...$3.99 First minute, $2.99 each additional minute.

 

[justlilolme]

LdiJ

Thank you for your input.

Have you ever been through this before? Do you have any opinion to offer on the legal interpretation of the order?

...Summer School is NOT mandatory...

...Mother not able to schedule activities without agreement during Father's visitation time...

Inquiry123

Is that a legal interpretation that you are offering? What information or experience, exactly, is it that you are basing those statements on?

Again ....

Is there anyone else that has ever had this problem that can share thier opinions and experiences?

Is there anyone that is an attorney or that through their own legal experiences can tell me what the actual legal interpretation is?

 

[haiku]

I have never heard of summer school being considered as part of the 'school year" at least in my neck of the woods. 'mandatory"

I would assume "school year' in a custody order would be the School calendar where the child resides, and summer school is not usually considered part of that calendar.

If mom gets the week after school ends, and the week before school starts and 2 weeks somewhere in between,I would think if mom wants the kid in summer school, maybe she should forgo her 2 weeks visitation, in exchange for getting the month while the kid is in summer school? Maybe dad will then be agreeable?......

 

[Inquiry123]

You doubt my POWERS?!

http://www.kcmsd.k12.mo.us/home.asp?b=9&id=28

This type of "summer school" program is not compulsory. Is it? No. It is offered on a "first come, first served" basis. Just like any of thousands of summer camps would be.

OK...Mother has physical custody of the child for the moment. Mother CAN make final decision if agreement cannot be reached for items pertaining to her periods of physical custody. Father can similarly make final decisions during his periods of physical custody -- hence, the foretold roller coaster. The order's designation of "school year" refers to the regular school year -- which, as you were told, does not have specific dates as they commonly change from year to year and between schools.

That is all...class dismissed.

 

[justlilolme]

Powers? Hmmm, sounds impressive .... although you have yet to impress me!

Now on to the matter at hand!

http://www.kcmsd.k12.mo.us/home.asp?b=9&id=28

This type of "summer school" program is not compulsory. Is it? No. It is offered on a "first come, first served" basis. Just like any of thousands of summer camps would be.

I never said that any summer school was compulsory! CJane and I disagreed as to when summer vacation started when summer school was involved. In her opinion it was when the compulsory school year ended.

OK...Mother has physical custody of the child for the moment. Mother CAN make final decision if agreement cannot be reached for items pertaining to her periods of physical custody. Father can similarly make final decisions during his periods of physical custody -- hence, the foretold roller coaster. The order's designation of "school year" refers to the regular school year -- which, as you were told, does not have specific dates as they commonly change from year to year and between schools.

That is all...class dismissed.

The order does not say that! That was my point! The order says nothing about limiting any decision making or anything about infringement of the other parents time. The order says that the parent THEN having physical custody. The order refers to decisions regarding school, summer camps, etc. very specifically.

The decision regarding summer school has to be made by May 6! While the child is still in the physical custody of the mother.

You have still not stated what you base any of your OPINIONS on!

 

[haiku]

its pretty clear this is a summer enrichment program, and not really "summer school" that was mandatory to keep the child from failing. This programs are available in just about every town in every state.

Also summer enrichment programs are not part of the legal school year. (The legal school year is how many days school must be in attendance by state law-180 days? this will fluctuate slightly every year due to things like snow days,and that is likely what the family court goes by.)

If thats the case, mom likely won't have a leg to stand on if dad were to take her to court for contempt of visitation, for taking away his time, if she insists on enrolling the kid, unles she uses it as HER summer visitation time per his agreement.