Terminating overnight visitation

[milmom]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Michigan

My ex husband I were separated in 2008, divorce finalized a year later. At the time of the divorce my ex husband had been living in Michigan for a year, our daughter and I living in Maryland. (My legal residency is Michigan, I am active duty military) We agreed to joint legal and physical custody as well as our parenting agreement/child support amount, etc. At the time of the divorce our daughter was 2 1/2 years old. Our original parenting plan was 6 weeks with me, 2 weeks with him, holidays alternating according to the state parenting time schedule, and 6 weeks in the summer. Two years ago we signed a new parenting time agreement eliminating the 2 weeks with him in lieu of one weekend a month in the state where our daughter lives with me, but the holiday schedule remained the same. We also added a requirement for written notice to exercise visitation to better facilitate planning ahead for travel expenses, etc. Most specifically our summer parenting plan is spelled out as him having to request visitation in writing by April 1st to be able to choose the 6 weeks. If written request isn't received by April 1st, he can still request default dates of June 15th - July 27th if he requests it in writing by the 15th of May. Our daughter and I are currently living in Texas, my ex husband is back in Michigan (he has moved once to Virginia for less than 6 months, and more recently to Louisiana but again for less than 6 months).

Over the course of the 5 years since our separation and the subsequent 4 since our divorce he has only exercised his visitation a handful of times, and never all of the parenting time we've agreed to. He has never requested more than a week of parenting time at any given time, and has never requested/executed his summer visitation. The last time he had an overnight visit with her was in June of 2011, and it was just one night. During the months of Apr 2011 - October 2011 our daughter lived temporarily with my mother in Michigan about an hour's drive from my ex husband. I had training out of state that I could not have dependents accompany. My ex husband would not agree to our daughter staying with my husband in Maryland, but refused to take her for that time. In an effort to maintain civility, we agreed to have my mother care for her during this time. The one overnight in June was one of 3 times he saw her during those months, although we had also signed an agreement for EOW parenting time while she was with my mother. Since then he has seen her once for a couple of hours here in Texas at my home December of 2011. Since the last visit he has called to speak to her a total of three times.

I recently filed to have his overnight visitation terminated. My question is whether or his lack of maintaining a relationship with our daughter is grounds to warrant the termination? We go before a referee for a hearing June 20th. After he was served, he's called twice to speak with her, but has not requested summer visitation.

Is it possible to arrange a conditional agreement that allows for him to gradually reestablish a relationship before reinstating overnight parenting time?

After the end of the school year (June 7th) our daughter and I will be moving back to Maryland. My ex husband is aware of the move.

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Michigan

My ex husband I were separated in 2008, divorce finalized a year later. At the time of the divorce my ex husband had been living in Michigan for a year, our daughter and I living in Maryland. (My legal residency is Michigan, I am active duty military) We agreed to joint legal and physical custody as well as our parenting agreement/child support amount, etc. At the time of the divorce our daughter was 2 1/2 years old. Our original parenting plan was 6 weeks with me, 2 weeks with him, holidays alternating according to the state parenting time schedule, and 6 weeks in the summer. Two years ago we signed a new parenting time agreement eliminating the 2 weeks with him in lieu of one weekend a month in the state where our daughter lives with me, but the holiday schedule remained the same. We also added a requirement for written notice to exercise visitation to better facilitate planning ahead for travel expenses, etc. Most specifically our summer parenting plan is spelled out as him having to request visitation in writing by April 1st to be able to choose the 6 weeks. If written request isn't received by April 1st, he can still request default dates of June 15th - July 27th if he requests it in writing by the 15th of May. Our daughter and I are currently living in Texas, my ex husband is back in Michigan (he has moved once to Virginia for less than 6 months, and more recently to Louisiana but again for less than 6 months).

Over the course of the 5 years since our separation and the subsequent 4 since our divorce he has only exercised his visitation a handful of times, and never all of the parenting time we've agreed to. He has never requested more than a week of parenting time at any given time, and has never requested/executed his summer visitation. The last time he had an overnight visit with her was in June of 2011, and it was just one night. During the months of Apr 2011 - October 2011 our daughter lived temporarily with my mother in Michigan about an hour's drive from my ex husband. I had training out of state that I could not have dependents accompany. My ex husband would not agree to our daughter staying with my husband in Maryland, but refused to take her for that time. In an effort to maintain civility, we agreed to have my mother care for her during this time. The one overnight in June was one of 3 times he saw her during those months, although we had also signed an agreement for EOW parenting time while she was with my mother. Since then he has seen her once for a couple of hours here in Texas at my home December of 2011. Since the last visit he has called to speak to her a total of three times.

I recently filed to have his overnight visitation terminated. My question is whether or his lack of maintaining a relationship with our daughter is grounds to warrant the termination? We go before a referee for a hearing June 20th. After he was served, he's called twice to speak with her, but has not requested summer visitation.

Is it possible to arrange a conditional agreement that allows for him to gradually reestablish a relationship before reinstating overnight parenting time?

After the end of the school year (June 7th) our daughter and I will be moving back to Maryland. My ex husband is aware of the move.

Yes, the bolded is possible. However, depending on the age of your child it might be a fairly short period of time.

What made you decide to "rock the boat" by asking to terminate overnights?

 

[milmom]

Yes, the bolded is possible. However, depending on the age of your child it might be a fairly short period of time.

What made you decide to "rock the boat" by asking to terminate overnights?

She's 6, will be turning 7 in November. And the time period doesn't matter to me, just that it's something that can help her become familiar and comfortable with him so that there isn't an undeeded emotional stress if she has to leave the state for 6 weeks to spend with him.

As far as my decision to "rock the boat" it's just been the gradual decrease in a relationship, the almost complete lack of communication for the last 2 years and my concern that at some point he could request visitation and I'd have to send her to him without her being comfortable. I would never deny visitation or find myself in contempt of the order, but I assumed based on his actions (or lack of) over the last two years as well as the whole five that this was going to be par for course for the next 12 and I was just looking to protect our daughter and myself in the event he decides to show up to play dad of the year. His family on occasion pushes him to step up his contact/responsibility but his interest generally only lasts for a couple days/week. I just had a moment where I realized he could continue to keep himself removed from her life and 3-4 years or whatever down the road write and request visitation and I would be stuck having to send her.

I would ideally like for him to reestablish his relationship and be a part of her life, if it were possibly to enforce visitation the way courts enforce child support I'd opt for that. She deserves her father.

If we were to agree on a gradual plan that would reinstate overnights, and he then fell back into the ways he's been, could it say he has to go back to the gradual again? Or have him required to follow a visitation schedule or lose overnights again?

 

[LdiJ]

She's 6, will be turning 7 in November. And the time period doesn't matter to me, just that it's something that can help her become familiar and comfortable with him so that there isn't an undeeded emotional stress if she has to leave the state for 6 weeks to spend with him.

As far as my decision to "rock the boat" it's just been the gradual decrease in a relationship, the almost complete lack of communication for the last 2 years and my concern that at some point he could request visitation and I'd have to send her to him without her being comfortable. I would never deny visitation or find myself in contempt of the order, but I assumed based on his actions (or lack of) over the last two years as well as the whole five that this was going to be par for course for the next 12 and I was just looking to protect our daughter and myself in the event he decides to show up to play dad of the year. His family on occasion pushes him to step up his contact/responsibility but his interest generally only lasts for a couple days/week. I just had a moment where I realized he could continue to keep himself removed from her life and 3-4 years or whatever down the road write and request visitation and I would be stuck having to send her.

I would ideally like for him to reestablish his relationship and be a part of her life, if it were possibly to enforce visitation the way courts enforce child support I'd opt for that. She deserves her father.

If we were to agree on a gradual plan that would reinstate overnights, and he then fell back into the ways he's been, could it say he has to go back to the gradual again? Or have him required to follow a visitation schedule or lose overnights again?

All of that is possible if the order is worded properly, and the judge agrees with you. The problem is that its not guaranteed that the judge would agree with you. The problem is that the older your daughter gets, the less likely it would be to get a judge to agree that dad had to continually start over with a phased in plan that did not give overnights until a certain point.

What's appropriate for a phased in plan at age six might not be what is appropriate at age 10 in the eyes of a judge, for example.

 

[milmom]

All of that is possible if the order is worded properly, and the judge agrees with you. The problem is that its not guaranteed that the judge would agree with you. The problem is that the older your daughter gets, the less likely it would be to get a judge to agree that dad had to continually start over with a phased in plan that did not give overnights until a certain point.

What's appropriate for a phased in plan at age six might not be what is appropriate at age 10 in the eyes of a judge, for example.

The hearing is before a referee, and the service states the goal is to get the two of us to come to an agreement. If the two of us can't, it says the referee will make a recomendation to the judge.

I would prefer to come to an amicable agreement that is in the best interest of our daughter first and foremost, but for all of us as well. What is a reasonable phased in plan for a 6 year old? I assume as an overprotective mom my idea of reasonable would probably be construed as controlling and ridiculous. I'm not familiar with phased in plans at all, and am not sure what would be appropriate for a 6 year old and especially a long distance phased in plan, since we will be living a 10 hour drive away from each other, and she's school aged. Any guidance?

And thank you, very much, for your responses!

 

[gam]

The hearing is before a referee, and the service states the goal is to get the two of us to come to an agreement. If the two of us can't, it says the referee will make a recomendation to the judge.

I would prefer to come to an amicable agreement that is in the best interest of our daughter first and foremost, but for all of us as well. What is a reasonable phased in plan for a 6 year old? I assume as an overprotective mom my idea of reasonable would probably be construed as controlling and ridiculous. I'm not familiar with phased in plans at all, and am not sure what would be appropriate for a 6 year old and especially a long distance phased in plan, since we will be living a 10 hour drive away from each other, and she's school aged. Any guidance?

And thank you, very much, for your responses!

A Ref is going to write a recommendation no matter what. Do not ever go into a Ref hearing believing their goal is to get the two of you to come to an agreement. Their goal is to get you to sign something that day, it might be something you both agree on, or it might be the recommendation they are to write to the Judge. Their main goal is to keep you from going before the Judge. They don't mediate, it's not mediation.

Ref's only make recommendations, they can't write orders, only Judges can make orders. If they get you to sign their recommendation, well then they have the so called agreement that two of you came to. It will go to the Judge either way, but it matters greatly here if it is signed. A signed recommendation goes to the Judge, who then signs it and now it is an order. An unsigned recommendation goes to the Judge, but the Judge has to wait before signing it into an order.

You have the right to object to any recommendation, and the Judge has to wait out that time frame before he signs that recommendation into an order. See the difference, a signed recommendation, Judge signs into an order, an unsigned one Judge has to wait and see if someone files an objection. If an objection is filed then a hearing will be set to have the Judge actually hear the case. Judges often don't go with the recommendation, must depends on your arguments, the other sides arguments, evidence presented to back those arguments.

Hard to say what you will get. Your not really being unreasonable in wanting a phase in, nor a back up plan to revert back in case dad does not follow through or stops again down the road. The court will look at other factors. I have not actually personally heard a case with your situation, the ones I know or the ones I have heard while sitting in many different Mi courts had different factors. None of them were able to get a back up plan if the parent stopped following the order, the court wanted to wait to see what would happen and told them if it did, to file and then they could add something. Your case dad has shown before that he is not consistant with his time, so you might get this in now. The cases I heard all started out with no relationship at all with the other parent, so they were starting from scratch. Some involved long distance and some did not.

Providing details of what those cases ended up with, would not be a benefit as the factors were really different then what you have going.

 

[LdiJ]

The hearing is before a referee, and the service states the goal is to get the two of us to come to an agreement. If the two of us can't, it says the referee will make a recomendation to the judge.

I would prefer to come to an amicable agreement that is in the best interest of our daughter first and foremost, but for all of us as well. What is a reasonable phased in plan for a 6 year old? I assume as an overprotective mom my idea of reasonable would probably be construed as controlling and ridiculous. I'm not familiar with phased in plans at all, and am not sure what would be appropriate for a 6 year old and especially a long distance phased in plan, since we will be living a 10 hour drive away from each other, and she's school aged. Any guidance?

And thank you, very much, for your responses!

I like gam's advice but I will tell you that a long distance phased in plan would normally start with dad coming to your community for some visits, before your daughter went to his.

 

[milmom]

A Ref is going to write a recommendation no matter what. Do not ever go into a Ref hearing believing their goal is to get the two of you to come to an agreement. Their goal is to get you to sign something that day, it might be something you both agree on, or it might be the recommendation they are to write to the Judge. Their main goal is to keep you from going before the Judge. They don't mediate, it's not mediation.

Ref's only make recommendations, they can't write orders, only Judges can make orders. If they get you to sign their recommendation, well then they have the so called agreement that two of you came to. It will go to the Judge either way, but it matters greatly here if it is signed. A signed recommendation goes to the Judge, who then signs it and now it is an order. An unsigned recommendation goes to the Judge, but the Judge has to wait before signing it into an order.

You have the right to object to any recommendation, and the Judge has to wait out that time frame before he signs that recommendation into an order. See the difference, a signed recommendation, Judge signs into an order, an unsigned one Judge has to wait and see if someone files an objection. If an objection is filed then a hearing will be set to have the Judge actually hear the case. Judges often don't go with the recommendation, must depends on your arguments, the other sides arguments, evidence presented to back those arguments.

Hard to say what you will get. Your not really being unreasonable in wanting a phase in, nor a back up plan to revert back in case dad does not follow through or stops again down the road. The court will look at other factors. I have not actually personally heard a case with your situation, the ones I know or the ones I have heard while sitting in many different Mi courts had different factors. None of them were able to get a back up plan if the parent stopped following the order, the court wanted to wait to see what would happen and told them if it did, to file and then they could add something. Your case dad has shown before that he is not consistant with his time, so you might get this in now. The cases I heard all started out with no relationship at all with the other parent, so they were starting from scratch. Some involved long distance and some did not.

Providing details of what those cases ended up with, would not be a benefit as the factors were really different then what you have going.

Thank you very much for explaining the ref process. I was totally off thinking it was a mediation type scenario. I did know that we would both have the opportunity to object to the referee's recommendation. Knowing this information, I wish I'd have the funds to retain a lawyer. :/ (My husband and I are currently in the process of buying a home) Would it be beneficial to see if my former attorney from my divorce proceedings would do a few phone consultations at her hourly rate to offer advice for the hearing? I know my ex won't have one. Also, if I chose to do this, would it change my stats from pro per/se?

How does the hearing go? Do we each get a chance to speak and then respond to each other's statements? Or does the referee just ask questions? Do we get asked what we want the outcome to be? My motion requested termination of overnight visitation, and didn't mentioned a phased in plan, is that something I should mention?

Lastly, if I offered to abate child support to facilitate a phased in plan with him having to travel to Maryland, could that even be done? And if so, could it be conditional that he follow the phased in plan? He's in arrears, and isn't ordered to pay much as it is. I don't rely on child support at all.

Thanks again in advance!

 

[milmom]

I like gam's advice but I will tell you that a long distance phased in plan would normally start with dad coming to your community for some visits, before your daughter went to his.

Thanks! In my request to modify by terminating overnight visitation, when it asked what my desired agreement would be, I stated that he have visitation in the state I live with our daughter, I didn't see how it would be feasible to have visitation in his state without overnights.

My mother (who our daughter has an extremely close relationship with) lives in Michigan, as well as my sister, about an hour from my ex husband. They have both offered to take our daughter for 2-3 weeks possibly in the summer to allow him to have visits that aren't overnights. I wouldn't be opposed to this, but in the past when we've tried this option, he doesn't maintain contact after the first week or so. Also, I wouldn't want to put a burden on my family (both work full time) of adjusting their lives for that length of time for someone who hasn't made an effort on their own. Also, any time I'm in Michigan with our daughter visiting my family, I've made a point to offer time to my ex, and it's hit or miss if he takes me up on the offer.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

I think it is really crap-tastic parenting that you drag your child all over the country, expecting dad to follow to see his daughter or come up with long distance transportation expenses. What is dads financial status? How much of that is he paying in support? Based on these answers, a court may feel the same.

 

[LdiJ]

I think it is really crap-tastic parenting that you drag your child all over the country, expecting dad to follow to see his daughter or come up with long distance transportation expenses. What is dads financial status? How much of that is he paying in support? Based on these answers, a court may feel the same.

Did you skim this thread instead of reading it? Did you not get the part that even when the child is in dad's area visiting other relatives and dad is offered time its hit or miss if he chooses to do so? Its pretty obvious that this parent is only marginally interested in his child.

 

[gam]

I think it is really crap-tastic parenting that you drag your child all over the country, expecting dad to follow to see his daughter or come up with long distance transportation expenses. What is dads financial status? How much of that is he paying in support? Based on these answers, a court may feel the same.

On top of what LdiJ pointed out, did you miss the fact that mom is in the military, serving our country and that is why she has moved all over?

 

[gam]

LdiJ made a good point, ask that they start where your child is, he has had little contact. If you still have family in Mi and will be visiting them or your child will, offer that to. I would also ask for that summer of 6 weeks to be split up, at least for a year or 2 after he does the phase in. That is not unreasonable and I have seen them do that with younger children. They usually look at under 5 as younger children, however your child is not that old, and with the little contact they might break that up.

Just a block in summer makes it very hard for children to bond. So think of other times, like doing every other Thanksgiving break, every other Christmas or half of Christmas break, every other Spring break. Mi also has a winter break in Feb, if the school system your child goes to has a break like that or any other longer breaks, then you can add that in to. You can also ask for a couple longer weekends in between to take place in your childs state. I've seen all the above done.

I would also ask for skype sessions throughout the year. One a week or one every other week is good to keep the child in contact. Easy to do these and they can be done from computers or many of the cell phones.

As far as the phase in, that all depends on where they decide that will take place to start. How much time dad would have for each visit(his work schedule will be considered). Transportation costs for visits. If you and the child will be spending anytime in Mi visiting relatives. It just depends on how much time is available to get the child comfortable and add in overnights. The court has no problem with making a once a month visit, so this phase in can be completed anywhere from 2-6 months, they will add in once a month even considering all of the above. If there is availability for time for a week or 2 week period everyday, this could actually be completed in that short of time.

Just remember what I told you above about a Ref hearing, if you don't like their recommendation, don't sign it. You can object and go before the Judge. You also have an option in front of the Judge of getting an investigation for this parenting time. The Judge can order that FOC investigate, it does require another hearing, however FOC investigators tend to spend more time with the parties and they do more of a mediation type recommendation. That is how my daughters case ended up with her 3 year old child and his long distance plan. That case started as a Ref hearing, that lasted 20 minutes tops, both parties objected, went to the Judge, Judge hearing lasted 10 minutes. The Judge ordered a FOC investigation, that hearing lasted 2 hours and a decent fair phase in plan was created. Either party could have objected to that FOC investigators recommendation to, and still had the Judge hear the whole thing. Point being you have options, so use them if needed.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

On top of what LdiJ pointed out, did you miss the fact that mom is in the military, serving our country and that is why she has moved all over?

This only means she cannot provide a stable home life for the child. This is the very reason the armed forces started requiring parents to give up custody, when joining the service as a solo parent. They have been screwing the men of the armed forces for decades over the very same issue. Woman have simply started to achieve equal rights in the past several years.

 

[gam]

This only means she cannot provide a stable home life for the child. This is the very reason the armed forces started requiring parents to give up custody, when joining the service as a solo parent. They have been screwing the men of the armed forces for decades over the very same issue. Woman have simply started to achieve equal rights in the past several years.

If the facts of this case were different then I would agree with you. However mom has been in the service for many years, and dad has not stepped up, not filed to change custody. Mom has worked around her being in the service, and has even discussed with dad when she could not be with the child what to do with that child. Dad again did not step up and take the child, he has mom send the child to grandmas, who lives in his state and then did not take advantage of many months of time the child was right there. Grandma took care of the child.

Where is dad stepping up here to do anything to offer his child a more stable life? He has always had the ability to file to change custody, to file to seek more time, to file to show the court that he can offer a more stable life home life for the child. He has not done that, his so called stable life, is far less stable then military mom here.

If this was a case just starting out, then yeah cool, equal rights for women have made it fair. Facts don't go with that though on this case, until they do, that won't come into play.