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Boxcarbill
Guest
ellencee said:
You really are quite insightful into the human condition, ellencee. Although it took you awhile to persuade me in this particular thread, you now have me joining in your opinion. Well done.
Boxcarbill
Thank you! It's a big 'whew!' for me, even though I did not know your were even keeping up with the thread.
If it had not been for JaneyS4 and others who were able to pick up on what I was trying to say, I don't think I would have gotten here. I certainly was not getting anywhere in trying to argue or defend my position and I believed all would have been better if I had not responded. It turns out that by being able to support my opinion, I may have been better able to present it.
I am glad that you are now able to understand why I took the stance that I did.
EC
Thank you! It's a big 'whew!' for me, even though I did not know your were even keeping up with the thread.
If it had not been for JaneyS4 and others who were able to pick up on what I was trying to say, I don't think I would have gotten here. I certainly was not getting anywhere in trying to argue or defend my position and I believed all would have been better if I had not responded. It turns out that by being able to support my opinion, I may have been better able to present it.
I am glad that you are now able to understand why I took the stance that I did.
EC
While I saw what you were trying to say, Ellencee, I didn't really think of it from the mother's point of view until you brought that up, I went through that when my ex and I split up. At my daughter's first birthday, less than one month after my mother died, and very pregnant with my son, I asked my ex, BEGGED him, "PLEASE don't bring *** with you to our daughter's bday party."This is the woman he was with, who we had split up over b/c he cheated on me with her throughout our relationship. Also the same woman he told me gave him hell for hugging me the day my mom died. of course she insisted on coming, and in the video, I regret to say you don't see me in it much, b/c of how upset I was, I couldn't even enjoy my child's bday party. Had I been a bit more emotionally stable(IE not having just lost mom and/or not being so pregnant) I would probably have made them both leave so I could enjoy myself, as it stands, on the video I certainly have quite a few shots of the two of them together.... I can DEFINITELY see it from a hurt mothers point of view. just my .02 cents.
I also agree they all need therapy.....
I also agree they all need therapy.....
Well, I had missed seeing a post in which he stated that he had cheated, only that SHE had accused him of that. I do know individuals who did not cheat, but their spouses could not accept that theye just didn't want to be with them, and decided it MUST be because of someone else.
Nextwife...Maybe that is what it said, that she accused him of it, but I don't think its as much about whether or not he cheated or not. Its about respecting each other's time. We scream constantly on here at CP's trying to have a say in what happens on NCP's time. Doesn't the same apply to NCP's about CP's time? Your not supposed to interfere, interrupt or intercede on the time of EITHER parent. ANd, after looking at it from a different perspective, that is exactly what this NCP is doing to the CP.
I still maintain that Dad should be allowed to participate in kids activities, it DOES mean something to the kids for him to be there, I'm sure, but some sort of mutual agreement needs to be worked out someway for these parents, so they can stop trying to hurt each other by hurting their kids.
I also agree with the therapy suggestion.
I still maintain that Dad should be allowed to participate in kids activities, it DOES mean something to the kids for him to be there, I'm sure, but some sort of mutual agreement needs to be worked out someway for these parents, so they can stop trying to hurt each other by hurting their kids.
I also agree with the therapy suggestion.
Well, for me, at least, it meant everything for my dad to be there, and, as he was dead before I started college, I thank goodness he was at all those events when he could be. So, I guess, I hate to see either parent forced by the other to deny their kids the other parent's presence at their events. And as these are school events and both parents have children in the school, either being at those events doesn't seem to fall into the catagory of interfering with the OPs time. Especially if they are nowhere near each other.
Regardless, my perspective is colored by the fact that there isn't always a "later" to make up for not going now.
Regardless, my perspective is colored by the fact that there isn't always a "later" to make up for not going now.
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FJ1200guy
Guest
Man.... all I can do is look at that post and try to get my jaw up off the ground. NEVER have I seen anything like this... wow.
Typical. A guy makes a mistake, now some vengeful, spiteful bitch wants her children to suffer because of it, and some folks still take her side.
For those of you who didn't grasp EC's concept... maybe some "See Spot run" books would be better reading? LOL I mean, it's easy enough to see where she is coming from. But for god's sake 2 years later and she hasn't moved on with her life?!?!?! And she is still punishing her children??!?! TWO YEARS LATER?!?!?!?
If we were talking about his infidelity, okay, can't really defend him at all. I surely wouldn't get into what that was all about... although it is, again, TYPICAL for fools not to question why he cheated. Because when a man, OR woman cheats... there's usually a reason. NOT an excuse, of course, but a break down in a relationship... but I digress.
I am just amazed. Not even insulted anymore, just... amazed. Mom is a total f.uc.k-up, and the Dad is being manipulative? Good lord, I am sitting here laughing all by myself at the... the... insanity of that statement! And what sort of MAN would agree with this type of man-bashing thinking? Ugh...
Ah well, I always said I LOVE different points of view. Well, they sure don't get much different than this! LOL
Later, all! Lyle
Typical. A guy makes a mistake, now some vengeful, spiteful bitch wants her children to suffer because of it, and some folks still take her side.
For those of you who didn't grasp EC's concept... maybe some "See Spot run" books would be better reading? LOL I mean, it's easy enough to see where she is coming from. But for god's sake 2 years later and she hasn't moved on with her life?!?!?! And she is still punishing her children??!?! TWO YEARS LATER?!?!?!?
If we were talking about his infidelity, okay, can't really defend him at all. I surely wouldn't get into what that was all about... although it is, again, TYPICAL for fools not to question why he cheated. Because when a man, OR woman cheats... there's usually a reason. NOT an excuse, of course, but a break down in a relationship... but I digress.
I am just amazed. Not even insulted anymore, just... amazed. Mom is a total f.uc.k-up, and the Dad is being manipulative? Good lord, I am sitting here laughing all by myself at the... the... insanity of that statement! And what sort of MAN would agree with this type of man-bashing thinking? Ugh...
Ah well, I always said I LOVE different points of view. Well, they sure don't get much different than this! LOL
Later, all! Lyle
YEs, see, I agree with you too, Next wife. The kids SHOULD be able to have BOTH parents at their functions. Unfortunately, that isn't happening for them. So on one hand, Dad shows them he's willing to show up, and mom takes them away before they get to play. On the other hand, if he stays away, they get to play, but not his support from the stands. ITs a no winner. Like I said, alternative solution must be found. And like ellen said, definate need for therapy there.
I would suggest to the OP that he take one of the alternative solutions that have been suggested by others. Go and stay out of sight of Mom. Have other parents tape the events and watch with kids on your time, or if it is at all possible, work out some sort of schedule with mom for you to attend some events, and her others. And please suggest family counseling for ALL of you.
I would suggest to the OP that he take one of the alternative solutions that have been suggested by others. Go and stay out of sight of Mom. Have other parents tape the events and watch with kids on your time, or if it is at all possible, work out some sort of schedule with mom for you to attend some events, and her others. And please suggest family counseling for ALL of you.
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FJ1200guy
Guest
"And please suggest family counseling for ALL of you."
The Dad needs counseling??? Because he wants to watch his children play sports??? Yeah, that makes sense.
"Pthalo"? LOL.. what is that, a dig? Some sort of reference to phallic? Hey are you calling me a dick??? LOL
No, I know (honestly) that the opinions here are as valid as any I have... It's just that as a father I've seen many men trying to do the right thing... things our society WANTS us to do... and these same men getting rebuffed and shut out by mothers like... well, like some posters I know, and like the OP's ex-wife. It's funny how every single poster here will say "Dad must be a part of the childs life, it's best for the child" but then encourage a Dad to give up and bail on his kids. It's typical of the hypocracy that runs rampant through our court system. It's ALWAYS the dad's fault... read the thread, and see who is being attacked, and who is being defended. heck, no one even believes that by having Dad disappear that it is BAD for the kids! Everyone thinks "Dad, if you go away, the kids will be happier"... it shows how people put NO value on fatherhood and the importance of men in our kids lives. Everyone seems to think it's OKAY for a woman to hold a grudge for 2 years, and punish her children for her and her husbands failings as a married couple. Not only that, these folks encourage this poor guy to REWARD her actions! Not realizing that will only encourage her to be MORE manipulative and MORE controlling.
Yep... typical "Woman is a victim" mentality... but no matter what EC or BCB, or any of you say... that out-dated way of thinking is changing. Men are finally standing up for what is right for their kids, even as mothers like EC try to slap us down by hiring lawyers like BCB... so enjoy this time... it will be over eventually, and men will no longer be considered second class parents. None of you can stop it.
Later! Lyle
The Dad needs counseling??? Because he wants to watch his children play sports??? Yeah, that makes sense.
"Pthalo"? LOL.. what is that, a dig?
Some sort of reference to phallic? Hey are you calling me a dick??? LOLNo, I know (honestly) that the opinions here are as valid as any I have... It's just that as a father I've seen many men trying to do the right thing... things our society WANTS us to do... and these same men getting rebuffed and shut out by mothers like... well, like some posters I know, and like the OP's ex-wife. It's funny how every single poster here will say "Dad must be a part of the childs life, it's best for the child" but then encourage a Dad to give up and bail on his kids. It's typical of the hypocracy that runs rampant through our court system. It's ALWAYS the dad's fault... read the thread, and see who is being attacked, and who is being defended. heck, no one even believes that by having Dad disappear that it is BAD for the kids! Everyone thinks "Dad, if you go away, the kids will be happier"... it shows how people put NO value on fatherhood and the importance of men in our kids lives. Everyone seems to think it's OKAY for a woman to hold a grudge for 2 years, and punish her children for her and her husbands failings as a married couple. Not only that, these folks encourage this poor guy to REWARD her actions! Not realizing that will only encourage her to be MORE manipulative and MORE controlling.
Yep... typical "Woman is a victim" mentality... but no matter what EC or BCB, or any of you say... that out-dated way of thinking is changing. Men are finally standing up for what is right for their kids, even as mothers like EC try to slap us down by hiring lawyers like BCB... so enjoy this time... it will be over eventually, and men will no longer be considered second class parents. None of you can stop it.
Later! Lyle
No, I wasn't calling you a Dick....but that could change at any time, depending on how something you say strikes me.
And yes, it was a dig, in a way. Your little general insult you through out there, the one I quoted in my previous post, reminded me of someone who used to come on here and make jabs at folks for the hell of it. That comment about "See Spot Run" is the sort of thing he would post, thinking he was being "witty" when all he was doing was making himself look like an ignoramus. Tossing out insults, like that one about peoples intelligence, just because they don't agree with your view, doesn't further your cause or make them "see the light", it only makes your case less credible.
I fully understand both perspectives of this situation, and the thing to always remember on this board, is that we only get ONE side of the story, and that side will always be colored to the posters advantage, and not always the whole truth.
edited to add: And yes, Dad should have counseling too. Family counseling is for the WHOLE family because the problem is EVERYONE'S in the family.
And yes, it was a dig, in a way. Your little general insult you through out there, the one I quoted in my previous post, reminded me of someone who used to come on here and make jabs at folks for the hell of it. That comment about "See Spot Run" is the sort of thing he would post, thinking he was being "witty" when all he was doing was making himself look like an ignoramus. Tossing out insults, like that one about peoples intelligence, just because they don't agree with your view, doesn't further your cause or make them "see the light", it only makes your case less credible.
I fully understand both perspectives of this situation, and the thing to always remember on this board, is that we only get ONE side of the story, and that side will always be colored to the posters advantage, and not always the whole truth.
edited to add: And yes, Dad should have counseling too. Family counseling is for the WHOLE family because the problem is EVERYONE'S in the family.
I think we're all kind of on the same page now, even you FJ1200guy.
(nextwife--Dad did not dispute the accusation and that indicates affirmation, even from a legal standpoint.)
FJ1200guy--You have some real issues with this father 'hero', mother 'victim' situation. No one has supported the mother's behavior; it has been consistently recognized as inappropriate behavior. Dad has a responsibilty to make amends for his behavior and no one has said he should go away forever or completely on a temporary basis. It has been said that he should back away either from site or in person until such time as the situation settles down. I can only infer that you think I am a supporter of women always having custody or a 'man-hater'. You could not be more wrong. One of my dearest friends has had custody of his children for over ten years and has devoted himself to those children, having never married again. My husband received custody of his children when he and his ex divorced. I fully support dads being 'househusbands' when it is more appropriate or beneficial than having the moms being 'housewives'. You'll have to label someone else with your typecasting; I don't fit that mold.
Two years is not an exceptionally long time to successfully complete a grief process. In order for one to successfully complete a grief process, one has to be allowed to heal. One year from the time of the last wound is how long the experts say it takes to complete the first round of the normal grief process. On top of being an emotionally injured person, she is the single parent of how many children? six or seven? Saints preserve us!! As a single parent, two children were enough for me to handle; make it six and I may have never known another sane moment.
Quite honestly, neither of them has healed from the wounds of this battle. If Dad had healed, he wouldn't be trying to act like he has no reason to do anything differently. If Mom had healed, she wouldn't care if he was visible; coaching may not be appropriate after two years, visible should be. Mom may not begin to heal until she gets a bandaid about 6' tall and with shoulders broad enough for her to lay her head.
Some people never get over a failed marriage. Some people never get over the absolute hatred they feel for their ex. Divorce is a painful experience; it's the loss of all of one's hopes and dreams and future plans and it's the loss of the past, too. I speak from experience on this--it's like everything that happened during the marriage is not relevant anymore, not the good times, not the tender, happy moments when the babies are born, nothing is relevant. It's a new life, totally unconnected to the one before. Your intimate partner is now the enemy or at best, a familiar stranger.
I did support Dad, and admonish him for allowing this, in the situation involving the child who was 'king' in some school activity. There are times when Dad is going to have to say, my time, my way. There are times when Dad is going to have to say, not my time, not my way.
This was a really hard concept for me to understand when I first had it presented to me--the only person's behavior we can control is our own. I applied that concept when I first posted.
Turmoil included, it has turned out to be a very interesting thread.
EC
(nextwife--Dad did not dispute the accusation and that indicates affirmation, even from a legal standpoint.)
FJ1200guy--You have some real issues with this father 'hero', mother 'victim' situation. No one has supported the mother's behavior; it has been consistently recognized as inappropriate behavior. Dad has a responsibilty to make amends for his behavior and no one has said he should go away forever or completely on a temporary basis. It has been said that he should back away either from site or in person until such time as the situation settles down. I can only infer that you think I am a supporter of women always having custody or a 'man-hater'. You could not be more wrong. One of my dearest friends has had custody of his children for over ten years and has devoted himself to those children, having never married again. My husband received custody of his children when he and his ex divorced. I fully support dads being 'househusbands' when it is more appropriate or beneficial than having the moms being 'housewives'. You'll have to label someone else with your typecasting; I don't fit that mold.
Two years is not an exceptionally long time to successfully complete a grief process. In order for one to successfully complete a grief process, one has to be allowed to heal. One year from the time of the last wound is how long the experts say it takes to complete the first round of the normal grief process. On top of being an emotionally injured person, she is the single parent of how many children? six or seven? Saints preserve us!! As a single parent, two children were enough for me to handle; make it six and I may have never known another sane moment.
Quite honestly, neither of them has healed from the wounds of this battle. If Dad had healed, he wouldn't be trying to act like he has no reason to do anything differently. If Mom had healed, she wouldn't care if he was visible; coaching may not be appropriate after two years, visible should be. Mom may not begin to heal until she gets a bandaid about 6' tall and with shoulders broad enough for her to lay her head.
Some people never get over a failed marriage. Some people never get over the absolute hatred they feel for their ex. Divorce is a painful experience; it's the loss of all of one's hopes and dreams and future plans and it's the loss of the past, too. I speak from experience on this--it's like everything that happened during the marriage is not relevant anymore, not the good times, not the tender, happy moments when the babies are born, nothing is relevant. It's a new life, totally unconnected to the one before. Your intimate partner is now the enemy or at best, a familiar stranger.
I did support Dad, and admonish him for allowing this, in the situation involving the child who was 'king' in some school activity. There are times when Dad is going to have to say, my time, my way. There are times when Dad is going to have to say, not my time, not my way.
This was a really hard concept for me to understand when I first had it presented to me--the only person's behavior we can control is our own. I applied that concept when I first posted.
Turmoil included, it has turned out to be a very interesting thread.
EC
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FJ1200guy
Guest
Janey....
It wasn't a "general dig"... I just don't want to name names. LOL... it was a poke at reading either not enough, or too much into simple posts. I'll keep it simpler from now on. dang sarcasm always gets me yelled at.
As far as getting only one side of the story... well... yeah? So that's what we address.
EC...
Same page??? We ain't even in the same book.
You are either not remembering your posts or you are "spinning" them. I ain't buying it.
"I can only infer that you think I am a supporter of women always having custody or a 'man-hater'. You could not be more wrong."
Never been more right that that. Unless you are just typing things in here as a devils advocate? If so, heck, you should have said so. Otherwise, I stick with my proven opinion.
What if she DOESN'T "get over it"???? Then what? I suppose you'll just figure "Ehhhh who needs a dad in the picture anyways."?
I bet if after 2 years, she SURE as heck ain't gonna be any better after 4. Who wins and who loses??? MOM wins, kids and Dad lose. Simple. KIDS LOSE.
I've wasted too much time with this, it makes me mad that anyone would side with this chick, and you did, EC, no matter how much you backpeddle. Your way of thinking is what keeps dads away from their kids. Believe it or not, but it's the truth.
CIAO! Lyle
It wasn't a "general dig"... I just don't want to name names. LOL... it was a poke at reading either not enough, or too much into simple posts. I'll keep it simpler from now on. dang sarcasm always gets me yelled at.
As far as getting only one side of the story... well... yeah? So that's what we address.
EC...
Same page??? We ain't even in the same book.
You are either not remembering your posts or you are "spinning" them. I ain't buying it.
"I can only infer that you think I am a supporter of women always having custody or a 'man-hater'. You could not be more wrong."
Never been more right that that. Unless you are just typing things in here as a devils advocate?
If so, heck, you should have said so. Otherwise, I stick with my proven opinion.What if she DOESN'T "get over it"???? Then what? I suppose you'll just figure "Ehhhh who needs a dad in the picture anyways."?
I bet if after 2 years, she SURE as heck ain't gonna be any better after 4. Who wins and who loses??? MOM wins, kids and Dad lose. Simple. KIDS LOSE.
I've wasted too much time with this, it makes me mad that anyone would side with this chick, and you did, EC, no matter how much you backpeddle. Your way of thinking is what keeps dads away from their kids. Believe it or not, but it's the truth.
CIAO!
Lyle