Update with questions

[SITLYNNE]

What is the name of your state? PA

It's been a long time and a lot has happened with my case. I've exhausted all my attempts with reaching an agreement out of court with my ex on exercising my visitation per court order. I have plenty of documentation at my attempts and denials by ex for me to visit my boys and for that matter even to contact them by phone or mail. All attempts are denied. I'm also denied my joint legal custody rights again and again.

So, frustrated to no end, I've gone back to see my old atty last week. Given him the retainer he requires and am proceeding suggested by him. I must say that I've contemplated going pro se for almost a year and after my dealings with ex over the last 3 months, I've decided to get my atty involved again. It was my last choice/option.
We should have a date in the near future for a conference with the same Custody Officer that we've had assigned to our case since July 2001.

1) Atty said he was filing a Petition to Clarify the current order and set specific visitation schedule instead of "visitation as agreed upon by the parties". What he actually filed was a Petition to Modify Custody of the current order and the last line reads: WHEREFORE, Petitioner respectfully prays that your Honorable Court order that shared physical and legal custody of the minor children be placed with the Petitioner. My old order read that we had shared physical and shared legal custody and exercised an even 50/50 split with the physical. When I asked atty to file for my shared custody back, he said not now. Lets clarify this order and get set days, counseling, and then, if all goes well and the boys 'want' shared 50/50 back, we'll file for that at that point. One step at a time, he said.
Question is: Did he acutally go against what we discussed in his office and file to get back my shared 50/50 custody? Or am I misreading this petition?


2) The petition filed states that the children should not attend the Conference unless requested by the Custody Conference Officer.
Question: If dad brings the boys to the conference again, what can be done by my atty to stop them from speaking to the Officer? At our last conference, Feb. 2004, petition stated the same with regards to the children attending, but dad brought them anyway and he and his atty convinced the Officer to let my oldest speak his dads rehearsed and coached lies to the Officer.

3) My atty did not ask for counseling in this petition.
Question: Should have that been included in this petition? Or should that be brought before the judge to order? And if the judge does order family or individual counseling, can dad refuse as he has refused counseling in the past? (Court ordered counseling was not refused, just attempts by me and my atty to have the boys and family in counseling, also Custody Officer suggested it to dad in Feb. 2004 and he refused) My worry is that dad will stall with the counseling as a tactic to run me out of money again, he threatened this just a few weeks ago when we discussed it.

4) Our current order states visitation as agreed upon by the parties, which dad and boys never agree too, since July 2004.
Question: Should there have been contempt charges filed for denied visitation or is dad not in contempt because of the wording of our current order?

[5) Getting the cops involved in visitation was unsuccessful in the past, local and state police refuse to be involved with civil disputes.
Question: Dad has already stated he knows even if the judge gives me my shared custody back, the boys are refusing to visit, and they all know the cops will not become involved, how would I proceed then?

6) Being that I have to take dad back to modify the order which he's refused to follow for almost 2 years, I really don't think I should be responsible for court or atty costs. Dad knows money is and was the issue and caused me to give up my custody last time and has stated he'll just do the same this time, run me out of money.
Question: Should my atty have asked for atty fees with this filing or does that come later when we reach the judge? (I'm 150% sure dad will not agree to any of the petition filed at the conference with the custody officer, therefore, we'll move on to the judge.






Thanks in advance for all advice and opinions.

 

[Zephyr]

did you get police reports of the times you requested their assistance, even though they weren't really able to do anything?

 

[rmet4nzkx]

What is the name of your state? PA

It's been a long time and a lot has happened with my case. I've exhausted all my attempts with reaching an agreement out of court with my ex on exercising my visitation per court order. I have plenty of documentation at my attempts and denials by ex for me to visit my boys and for that matter even to contact them by phone or mail. All attempts are denied. I'm also denied my joint legal custody rights again and again.

So, frustrated to no end, I've gone back to see my old atty last week. Given him the retainer he requires and am proceeding suggested by him. I must say that I've contemplated going pro se for almost a year and after my dealings with ex over the last 3 months, I've decided to get my atty involved again. It was my last choice/option.
We should have a date in the near future for a conference with the same Custody Officer that we've had assigned to our case since July 2001.

This is usually the case.

1) Atty said he was filing a Petition to Clarify the current order and set specific visitation schedule instead of "visitation as agreed upon by the parties". What he actually filed was a Petition to Modify Custody of the current order and the last line reads: WHEREFORE, Petitioner respectfully prays that your Honorable Court order that shared physical and legal custody of the minor children be placed with the Petitioner. My old order read that we had shared physical and shared legal custody and exercised an even 50/50 split with the physical. When I asked atty to file for my shared custody back, he said not now. Lets clarify this order and get set days, counseling, and then, if all goes well and the boys 'want' shared 50/50 back, we'll file for that at that point. One step at a time, he said.
Question is: Did he acutally go against what we discussed in his office and file to get back my shared 50/50 custody? Or am I misreading this petition?

"clarification" is accomplished by an order to modify and request for a set parenting plan/schedule as opposed to the vague language you agreed to previously. Until you have an enforcable order there is no contempt.

2) The petition filed states that the children should not attend the Conference unless requested by the Custody Conference Officer.
Question: If dad brings the boys to the conference again, what can be done by my atty to stop them from speaking to the Officer? At our last conference, Feb. 2004, petition stated the same with regards to the children attending, but dad brought them anyway and he and his atty convinced the Officer to let my oldest speak his dads rehearsed and coached lies to the Officer.

This can be requested but the Hearing Officer has the power to decide who they will hear and the discretion that goes with that power.

3) My atty did not ask for counseling in this petition.
Question: Should have that been included in this petition? Or should that be brought before the judge to order? And if the judge does order family or individual counseling, can dad refuse as he has refused counseling in the past? (Court ordered counseling was not refused, just attempts by me and my atty to have the boys and family in counseling, also Custody Officer suggested it to dad in Feb. 2004 and he refused) My worry is that dad will stall with the counseling as a tactic to run me out of money again, he threatened this just a few weeks ago when we discussed it.

If your ex will not agree to counseling out of court it defeats the purpose of counseling to force it on an otherwise fit parent. A counselor can't force anything on any party anyway, discretion is the better part of valor, this is a battle you won't win. Cut your loss and get into counseling yourself, that will net you more points in court later than a childish battle now.

4) Our current order states visitation as agreed upon by the parties, which dad and boys never agree too, since July 2004.
Question: Should there have been contempt charges filed for denied visitation or is dad not in contempt because of the wording of our current order?

Since there is no agreement between you two, the language in the order is not enforceable, therefore, there is no contempt.

5) Getting the cops involved in visitation was unsuccessful in the past, local and state police refuse to be involved with civil disputes.
Question: Dad has already stated he knows even if the judge gives me my shared custody back, the boys are refusing to visit, and they all know the cops will not become involved, how would I proceed then?

There is nothing for the police to be involved in since the there is no violation in the court's order that is why it is a civil matter.

6) Being that I have to take dad back to modify the order which he's refused to follow for almost 2 years, I really don't think I should be responsible for court or atty costs. Dad knows money is and was the issue and caused me to give up my custody last time and has stated he'll just do the same this time, run me out of money.
Question: Should my atty have asked for atty fees with this filing or does that come later when we reach the judge? (I'm 150% sure dad will not agree to any of the petition filed at the conference with the custody officer, therefore, we'll move on to the judge.

You agreed to the order, you can ask for attorney fees but it is up to the court to decide and unlikely you will be awarded attorney fees to modify an order you agreed to in the past.

Thanks in advance for all advice and opinions.

You are very welcome.

 

[Zephyr]

do you have any dates yet?

 

[SITLYNNE]

do you have any dates yet?

No, atty said we should hear something soon and should get into the conference within a month of the filings, which were on Feb. 16th.

 

[SITLYNNE]

did you get police reports of the times you requested their assistance, even though they weren't really able to do anything?

Nope, both times the state police were called, they refused to even come to the residence, so I know there was no report written. At the time, I was not aware I should be asking for a report, now it's to late for that.

The local police were called 3 times and I'm thinking of checking with them to see if there is any documentation to that fact. I did not ask for a report any of those times, again due to being completely ignorant to the way I should be handling things.

 

[Zephyr]

If your ex will not agree to counseling out of court it defeats the purpose of counseling to force it on an otherwise fit parent. A counselor can't force anything on any party anyway, discretion is the better part of valor, this is a battle you won't win. Cut your loss and get into counseling yourself, that will net you more points in court later than a childish battle now.


I am not sure if I am not understanding what type of counseling you would be asking for....is it reunification counseling for you and the children or family counseling that would include dad as well?

 

[SITLYNNE]

"clarification" is accomplished by an order to modify and request for a set parenting plan/schedule as opposed to the vague language you agreed to previously. Until you have an enforcable order there is no contempt.

But my question is this petition asking for clarification of the current order or asking to modify the current order back to the previous order of shared physical custody?
This can be requested but the Hearing Officer has the power to decide who they will hear and the discretion that goes with that power.

Yep, that's exactly how it happened last time. Just wondering if there was any way around it this time.

If your ex will not agree to counseling out of court it defeats the purpose of counseling to force it on an otherwise fit parent. A counselor can't force anything on any party anyway, discretion is the better part of valor, this is a battle you won't win. Cut your loss and get into counseling yourself, that will net you more points in court later than a childish battle now.

How can dad be an otherwise fit parent when he has continually alienated my boys from me for the last 6 years? If the judge orders the counseling by the court, dad doesn't have to follow that court order?

 

[SITLYNNE]

If your ex will not agree to counseling out of court it defeats the purpose of counseling to force it on an otherwise fit parent. A counselor can't force anything on any party anyway, discretion is the better part of valor, this is a battle you won't win. Cut your loss and get into counseling yourself, that will net you more points in court later than a childish battle now.


I am not sure if I am not understanding what type of counseling you would be asking for....is it reunification counseling for you and the children or family counseling that would include dad as well?

My atty referred to it as family counseling and did not say if it would include dad, but did say it would include me and the boys. All having individual counseling and then group/family counseling. He even told me the name of the dr. who would be assigned by the judge.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

If your ex will not agree to counseling out of court it defeats the purpose of counseling to force it on an otherwise fit parent. A counselor can't force anything on any party anyway, discretion is the better part of valor, this is a battle you won't win. Cut your loss and get into counseling yourself, that will net you more points in court later than a childish battle now.


I am not sure if I am not understanding what type of counseling you would be asking for....is it reunification counseling for you and the children or family counseling that would include dad as well?

Do you see what I am saying? No matter what type of counseling she wants, since she has asked and he has not agreed, she gets the counseling herself and has proof that she is working on her issues, leaving dad to explain why he objects to counseling intended to be in the best interest of the children. She needs to understand, even though she doesn't like me or what I say, that she can't force another person to change in counseling to her perspective.

 

[SITLYNNE]

Do you see what I am saying? No matter what type of counseling she wants, since she has asked and he has not agreed, she gets the counseling herself and has proof that she is working on her issues, leaving dad to explain why he objects to counseling intended to be in the best interest of the children. She needs to understand, even though she doesn't like me or what I say, that she can't force another person to change in counseling to her perspective.

I never asked dad to go to counseling, I've only asked the boys go, per out joint legal custody. I'll never change dad, nor will a counselor. What happens if the judge orders counseling for the boys? That's what I want, my boys to get help.
Why do you say I don't like you RMet?

 

[rmet4nzkx]

"clarification" is accomplished by an order to modify and request for a set parenting plan/schedule as opposed to the vague language you agreed to previously. Until you have an enforcable order there is no contempt.

But my question is this petition asking for clarification of the current order or asking to modify the current order back to the previous order of shared physical custody?

It is a matter of semantics, it is the same order being modified in order to clarify it's intent so it can be enforced.

This can be requested but the Hearing Officer has the power to decide who they will hear and the discretion that goes with that power.

Yep, that's exactly how it happened last time. Just wondering if there was any way around it this time.

If it happened last time you asked, I doubt the hearing officer will see it differently, your children are older now, so why should they have less voice?

If your ex will not agree to counseling out of court it defeats the purpose of counseling to force it on an otherwise fit parent. A counselor can't force anything on any party anyway, discretion is the better part of valor, this is a battle you won't win. Cut your loss and get into counseling yourself, that will net you more points in court later than a childish battle now.

How can dad be an otherwise fit parent when he has continually alienated my boys from me for the last 6 years? If the judge orders the counseling by the court, dad doesn't have to follow that court order?

It is your belief that your boys have been alienated, apparently they are not unhappy with the current arrangement. Have you asked them how they feel about you? Perhaps they have their reasons for their beliefs that are entirely their own? If the judge orders counseling, that is one thing, remember you can drag a horse to water but you can't make them drink. You time to act was when you gave your ex custody 6 years ago.

 

[Zephyr]

Do you see what I am saying? No matter what type of counseling she wants, since she has asked and he has not agreed, she gets the counseling herself and has proof that she is working on her issues, leaving dad to explain why he objects to counseling intended to be in the best interest of the children. She needs to understand, even though she doesn't like me or what I say, that she can't force another person to change in counseling to her perspective.

I see...dad really would not have a substantial reason for denying the counseling, good point.

 

[lisagr33]

It is your belief that your boys have been alienated, apparently they are not unhappy with the current arrangement. Have you asked them how they feel about you? Perhaps they have their reasons for their beliefs that are entirely their own? If the judge orders counseling, that is one thing, remember you can drag a horse to water but you can't make them drink. You time to act was when you gave your ex custody 6 years ago.

If she were able to even get her sons on the phone that would be one thing. The dad has pretty much alienated them from her.

Question. Are you saying that she gave up on her time to act when her ex was awarded custody six years ago? I think any NCP can fight no matter how long ago custody was awarded. The fact is, she has been fighting and her ex has been controlling the situation.

The visitation seems very liberal to me in that her vistation is set whenever they can agree on times. I think that dad got it that way so that he could alienate her children.

I agree that it is time for a modification. The visitation needs to fixed to specific times. As for the counseling, talk to your attorney and ask if he can request that the boys be sent.

I am not a lawyer and this is just my own opinion.

 

[FrustratedMommy]

If she were able to even get her sons on the phone that would be one thing. The dad has pretty much alienated them from her.

Question. Are you saying that she gave up on her time to act when her ex was awarded custody six years ago? I think any NCP can fight no matter how long ago custody was awarded. The fact is, she has been fighting and her ex has been controlling the situation.

The visitation seems very liberal to me in that her vistation is set whenever they can agree on times. I think that dad got it that way so that he could alienate her children.

I agree that it is time for a modification. The visitation needs to fixed to specific times. As for the counseling, talk to your attorney and ask if he can request that the boys be sent.

I am not a lawyer and this is just my own opinion.

I totally agree with this poster.